Character discussion : This Week 'Scorponok'

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Terome
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Religious war

Post by Terome » Wed May 11, 2005 3:59 pm

I've kind of decided that the conflict could be construed as a secular uprising against a stagnant, religious culture, especially with the side of the Cybertronian society we see in War Within.

Apart from Megatron, who had had some kind of spooky revelation, nobody knew that the funk the Matrix was for, and it seems only the most pious of the Autobots had much faith in the High Council. Could be that the Decepticons wanted a system of government that wasn't based on the whims of a glowing ball and that didn't espouse dogmatic mummery about Primus and a Higher Purpose... keep in mind that this system not only ran the planet, but was the only available source of reproduction for the entire species.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable insurrection to me. Trouble with military coups is that you tend to get autocratic bastards running them. Trouble with wars fought by robots is that everyone is very hard to kill and they tend to run overtime.
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Re: Religious war

Post by Metal Vendetta » Wed May 11, 2005 4:05 pm

Terome wrote:I've kind of decided that the conflict could be construed as a secular uprising against a stagnant, religious culture, especially with the side of the Cybertronian society we see in War Within.

Apart from Megatron, who had had some kind of spooky revelation, nobody knew that the funk the Matrix was for, and it seems only the most pious of the Autobots had much faith in the High Council. Could be that the Decepticons wanted a system of government that wasn't based on the whims of a glowing ball and that didn't espouse dogmatic mummery about Primus and a Higher Purpose... keep in mind that this system not only ran the planet, but was the only available source of reproduction for the entire species.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable insurrection to me. Trouble with military coups is that you tend to get autocratic bastards running them. Trouble with wars fought by robots is that everyone is very hard to kill and they tend to run overtime.
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Hmmm. I really like this. Dunno why.
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Post by Señior's Covenant » Wed May 11, 2005 4:06 pm

Best First wrote:he doesn't have to - there is no evidence to suggest that he played a part in the formation of the original Decepticon's. he could have been off planet for all we know - Prime for example did not seem to recognise his name at the end of G2 and he is a as well versed in TF lore as anyone.

Seems to me he was one of the arliest TF's but was not a persistant influence (may even have been dispatched by one of the other 'first' TFs, in a similar manner to the Fallen) but came back at some point armed with the knowledge of biomorphic reporduction and started his own wee cult.

or something - either way i don'tthink the formatin of Meg's Decep's needs anything in the way of retconning.


See, I always saw it as sort of a lost & found type of thing. Prima & Maximo, more?, rise up from Cybertron as Primus intended. Then, via the fan-made notion, Unicron mentally affected Maximo (as well as the others that we'd see, or the descendents of which we'd see, near the end of the Marvel run prior to G2) and Maximo founded (while maybe not in name) the Decepticons. Who knows when later, at some point after him leaving Cybertron, the conflict ended at some point and was later started again by Megatron rediscovering roots.

Does that make sense? Is it a horrid notion?

Terome wrote:I've kind of decided that the conflict could be construed as a secular uprising against a stagnant, religious culture, especially with the side of the Cybertronian society we see in War Within.

Apart from Megatron, who had had some kind of spooky revelation, nobody knew that the funk the Matrix was for, and it seems only the most pious of the Autobots had much faith in the High Council. Could be that the Decepticons wanted a system of government that wasn't based on the whims of a glowing ball and that didn't espouse dogmatic mummery about Primus and a Higher Purpose... keep in mind that this system not only ran the planet, but was the only available source of reproduction for the entire species.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable insurrection to me. Trouble with military coups is that you tend to get autocratic bastards running them. Trouble with wars fought by robots is that everyone is very hard to kill and they tend to run overtime.
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That's actually ingenius. :up:
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Maximo's Decepticons

Post by Terome » Wed May 11, 2005 4:33 pm

Why, thank you. The idea kinda arises out of the cliche that the bad guys are always more technologically advanced than the good guys, who usually have God or The American Way or some such thing on their side. And hell, I know which side I'd pick.

If Maximo had had a big skirmish with Prima or whoever in Cybertron's distant past, and taking into account the interesting tidbit from Reaching The Omega Point which has him ripping the Matrix from Prima's chest, it would make a lot of sense as to why there are so many military designs and exotic destructive technologies incorporated into the Transformers across the board. There'd also be a ton of vets from both sides hanging around, or at least new bots that use similar designs to the vets. Both with a lot of frustrated aggression to work out in say, gladitorial combat or a token police force that enforces the will of a theocratic dictatorship...

But y'know, Scorponok. I wonder if he came up with the Pretender shells all by himself or whether he just took credit for them. Did he show much of a scientific bent in any other issues or did that come out of nowhere?

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Re: Religious war

Post by Best First » Wed May 11, 2005 5:45 pm

Terome wrote:
Apart from Megatron, who had had some kind of spooky revelation, nobody knew that the funk the Matrix was for, and it seems only the most pious of the Autobots had much faith in the High Council. Could be that the Decepticons wanted a system of government that wasn't based on the whims of a glowing ball and that didn't espouse dogmatic mummery about Primus and a Higher Purpose... keep in mind that this system not only ran the planet, but was the only available source of reproduction for the entire species.


i think this makes some sense in the context of The War Within, but not so much in teh opriginal Marvel universe, where the Matrix is not erally established as being at the centre of society and there are numerous city states each with tehri own governments. That said we never get taht much info about 'Golden age' Cybertron.

Is the thing about Unicron effecting Maximo canon? Not sure how keen i am. I prefer te idea he looked around him, realised he was powerful as hell and thought 'Bugger this'.
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Re: Religious war

Post by Señior's Covenant » Wed May 11, 2005 5:48 pm

Best First wrote:Is the thing about Unicron effecting Maximo canon?


Not at all. The only canon on Maximo is a couple of comments made by Jhiaxus and the final panel from G2.
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Re: Religious war

Post by Metal Vendetta » Wed May 11, 2005 6:14 pm

Señior's Covenant wrote:
Best First wrote:Is the thing about Unicron effecting Maximo canon?


Not at all. The only canon on Maximo is a couple of comments made by Jhiaxus and the final panel from G2.

Depends if we count the Ultimate Guide as canon - there's stuff about Maximo in there too...
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Re: Religious war

Post by Señior's Covenant » Wed May 11, 2005 6:20 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
Señior's Covenant wrote:
Best First wrote:Is the thing about Unicron effecting Maximo canon?


Not at all. The only canon on Maximo is a couple of comments made by Jhiaxus and the final panel from G2.

Depends if we count the Ultimate Guide as canon - there's stuff about Maximo in there too...


There's also 'stuff', or as I like to call it 'crap', about Primus and Unicron being brothers or some nonsense and they were created by 'the One' so Uni's not from a previous Universe where he devoured himself into the Void. Likewise there's no event involving entrapment into metal-strewn asteroids. Ultimate Guide my ass. I dislike that thing.
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City-States!

Post by Terome » Wed May 11, 2005 6:46 pm

Damn! Forgot about the city-states...

Not too keen on Unicron being behind the Decepticons either, even indirectly. That would make the whole thing a bit too Greek.

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Post by Autobloke » Wed May 11, 2005 6:56 pm

Surely an 'Ultimate Guide' would've included ALL the TF comic stories, cartoon guides, toy photos and tech specs etc?

Oh, and NOT licked Dreamwave's ass so much.

And just like the Matrix, I am the only source of procreation on THIS planet (cups groin and swaggers about in front of the ladies).
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My god!

Post by Terome » Wed May 11, 2005 7:20 pm

Dad?

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Re: My god!

Post by Autobloke » Wed May 11, 2005 7:21 pm

Terome wrote:Dad?

Yep.
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Re: Religious war

Post by Metal Vendetta » Wed May 11, 2005 9:55 pm

Señior's Covenant wrote:Ultimate Guide my ass. I dislike that thing.

I love the bit about Macaddam being one of the original 13 :D :D :D
The rest is...meh...
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Post by Best First » Wed May 11, 2005 10:31 pm

i think it has some big plusses, but ultimatly suffers from trying to prop up DW.

As it is it feels rather revisionist, which i resent.
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Post by KingMob » Thu May 12, 2005 7:08 am

And the format and 'Ultimate Guide' tag are part of the DK conventions for that type of book; all their 'Ultimate Guides' are the same size and laid out the same way - big pictures, fairly light on fluff. The TF one is actually interesting because it contains new material rather than just surface skims of old stuff. Pity the new content is chiefly aimed at the DW-iverse, indeed.

Think Furman himself said that if he was to do a 'proper' Guidebook he'd estimate it at being a series of about 7 books that size.

The Scorponok/Pretender thing did seem like it came out of nowhere a bit. Mindwipe was involved as well, IIRC - or at least Vorath was? - and he seemed slightly sciencey; the thing with the nightlights for example.

But I kinda prefer to imagine that it's an old process, maybe developed for specific off-Cybertron exploration or something, that was basically forgotten about and that the pair of 'em basically found how to make 'em in an old science textbook or something.

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Post by Señior's Covenant » Thu May 12, 2005 1:18 pm

KingMob wrote:But I kinda prefer to imagine that it's an old process, maybe developed for specific off-Cybertron exploration or something, that was basically forgotten about and that the pair of 'em basically found how to make 'em in an old science textbook or something.


Nice. :up:

Could be a nice follow through into the Maximal & Predacon era transformations, like seen in BW. Pretender Shell tech and alt. mode combined into one for exploration & whatnot.
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Post by Brendocon » Thu May 12, 2005 1:24 pm

KingMob wrote:The Scorponok/Pretender thing did seem like it came out of nowhere a bit. Mindwipe was involved as well, IIRC - or at least Vorath was? - and he seemed slightly sciencey; the thing with the nightlights for example.

But I kinda prefer to imagine that it's an old process, maybe developed for specific off-Cybertron exploration or something, that was basically forgotten about and that the pair of 'em basically found how to make 'em in an old science textbook or something.


Bear in mind that there were Pretenders trotting about on Cybertron at about the same time (maybe beforehand, I can't recall).
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu May 12, 2005 4:05 pm

Señior's Covenant wrote:Could be a nice follow through into the Maximal & Predacon era transformations, like seen in BW. Pretender Shell tech and alt. mode combined into one for exploration & whatnot.

I started a fanfic once about this, it was Longtooth who first "Maximised" the Pretender process, becoming one with his shell and this the first Maximal...
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Señior's Covenant » Thu May 12, 2005 4:28 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
Señior's Covenant wrote:Could be a nice follow through into the Maximal & Predacon era transformations, like seen in BW. Pretender Shell tech and alt. mode combined into one for exploration & whatnot.

I started a fanfic once about this, it was Longtooth who first "Maximised" the Pretender process, becoming one with his shell and this the first Maximal...


Anything you could forward on? Sounds great.
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu May 12, 2005 5:17 pm

Sure, you'll have to wait till I get home though...I'm still out in San Francisco, and I don't have access to my home PC :)
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Post by Señior's Covenant » Thu May 12, 2005 5:45 pm

Yay! I can wait. :)
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Post by KingMob » Fri May 13, 2005 7:07 am

Brendocon wrote:Bear in mind that there were Pretenders trotting about on Cybertron at about the same time (maybe beforehand, I can't recall).


Yeah, that's true. Hmmm.
I was just trying to think of a reason why Scorpy and Mindwipe came up with it outta nowhere, not considering any other connections. The 'it were an old thing' comes from Longtooth and Thunderwing having shells pre-Ark Crash.
*crosses fingers* Maybe there are none, really? No direct ones, anyway.

Taking Longtooth as an example, he was bombing around in a shell when Prime was still on Cybertron. He was one of the Cybertronian dudes sent out on the Matrix Quest, and he seems to be a bit of a search/rescue/explore sea-environment dude. Stretch a bit and say his shell - even him personally - could be a result of early off-world exploration? Or a descendent of said programme...maybe similar for his companions, but they are more visibly standard humanoid (ok one has 2 heads) so the shells designed for different species contact. Or are simply more refined. Dunno, rambling. Will stop.

Another tack.

Thunderwing was a bit sciencey...or maybe just had a bunch of really smart underlings, but whatever, he was involved in ripping off the Micromaster process and replicating it. And he had a shell ages ago.
And his old boss, Megadeath was a total fruit-loop and seemed a bit sciencey. He seemed quite 'customised' and had the 'dirty bombs', for example.
Maybe Megadeath was involved in the development of Pretender shells. Maybe it weren't for exploration, but was one of his weird weapon programme offshoots. Thunderwing was the test-bed model. His vision of a new, powerful form of Decepticon warrior.
So maybe Thunders retains an interest in weapons tech - he has an unusual and distinctly Decepticon weapon in his Cyclone Cannon, too - and it's part of his plan to grasp power. Maybe he was put off for a bit by Megadeath being bonkers and he maybe got involved in whatever adventures resulted in the Autobots getting Pretender tech - espionage?
So he hits on thieving the Micromaster idea, and maybe he was planning some new Pretenders too...the idea and method, thought lost during the initial tussles between the '2nd generation' Cybertronian Pretenders is rediscovered.

Then he gets capped during a mission on Earth and Megatron steals his idea.
Or the Sports Car Patrol give it to him.
Or something.

Will stop thinking-on-keyboard now. Sorry.

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Post by Metal Vendetta » Fri May 13, 2005 7:17 am

The story of how Bludgeon got his shell really deserves to be told. It has such potential.
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Post by Brendocon » Fri May 13, 2005 8:04 am

I was sketching out an epic fanfic a while back that I've never been arsed to actually write...

One of the plot strands was that they snaffled the Pretender tech (along with knowledge of other future things) from Cyclonus and Scourge after they got bundled back in time.

Also explains the combiner tech existing on Cybertron prior to Shockwave accessing the Matrix.
Grrr. Argh.

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Re: Religious war

Post by spiderfrommars » Fri May 13, 2005 8:30 am

The Thunderwing shell thing also crops up in A Small War. The story's a flashback (circa 1988) and as Acting Commander he has a pretender shell. Its possible that they got hold of the tech pretty quick, but Scorponok was pretty centred on Earth by that time.

Best First wrote:
i think this makes some sense in the context of The War Within, but not so much in teh opriginal Marvel universe, where the Matrix is not erally established as being at the centre of society and there are numerous city states each with tehri own governments. That said we never get taht much info about 'Golden age' Cybertron.


I think there's enough in TF Marvel history to infer (at a stretch) a somewhat stagnant society a little too content with itself, and reliant somewhat on the High Council (the Overlord was one of the last ancients.. link to the old way wasn't he?)

How often is a Golden Age just that? Could well mean happiness for the rich, struggle for the poor.

Dunno... I just like the idea of the Decepticons being revolutionaries with a cause we can sympathise with. ;)

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Re: Religious war

Post by Brendocon » Fri May 13, 2005 8:37 am

spiderfrommars wrote:Dunno... I just like the idea of the Decepticons being revolutionaries with a cause we can sympathise with. ;)


Me too. It's the whole thing about good/evil, black/white or whatever. The truth is that, in reality, it's never really the case. Even the most "evil" of people (I think) believe deep down that what they're doing is righteous.

It's the way of attaining their goals and what they're willing to sacrifice that draws the line, imo.
Grrr. Argh.

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Post by Autobloke » Fri May 13, 2005 9:14 pm

Okay, I have a potential spanner to chuck in the works concerning the Pretender shells being on Cybertron before Prime and co left. If anyone wants to set me right though, that's fine too.
When the Ark revived the TFs in 1984, it didn't recognise organic beings (humans) as lifeforms (we'll ignore the Dinobots thing), and as that type of ignorance must have been programmed into the Ark's computer before it left Cybertron four million years ago, it must mean that Transformers were fairly unaware of organic life. Basically, this means that animal Pretender shells - and more confusingly, human ones (even if they have two heads) - wouldn't be likely to have even been considered because TFs didn't know such a form of life (carbon-based) even existed.

The only explanations are the 'stealing tech from time-fallen Cyclonus and Scourge' or that the Ark's database was seriously incomplete.

What do you all reckon?
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Post by Warcry » Sat May 14, 2005 4:25 am

IIRC, the Ark's computer wouldn't recognise organic life because it had been damaged somehow in the four million years after creating the Dinobots.

Yeah, I know that's a weak explanation.

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Post by Señior's Covenant » Sat May 14, 2005 4:21 pm

Autobloke wrote:When the Ark revived the TFs in 1984, it didn't recognise organic beings (humans) as lifeforms (we'll ignore the Dinobots thing), and as that type of ignorance must have been programmed into the Ark's computer before it left Cybertron four million years ago, it must mean that Transformers were fairly unaware of organic life.


Not so much though. Teletran's job was to locate the dominate forms of life on a planet. To a race of mechanical beings, machines would likely be considered for such a thing, pending whatever logic you'd require for the case of each Earth-based Transformer's alt. mode. Surely a race like Cybertronians weren't ignorant of other forms of life in the cosmos after millions and millions of years of existing. The Dinobot situation has been explained quite nicely at TransFans prior, in that as there were no machines at the time, Teletran went under its level of species to the local dominate creatures of the time, dinosaurs.
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Post by Autobloke » Sat May 14, 2005 4:58 pm

I suppose. (furrows brow and tries to remember cool thing to win discussion) :eyebrow:

Surely the Ark would be aware of such things as transport vehicles (the TFs use them themselves ie. the ARK), and wouldn't just take the whizzing of vehicles as fact of sentience. If it had been aware of organic lifeforms (possible considering TFs must have been offplanet and encountered some - they seemed to be rather common in the Marvel TF universe - even if they were mostly TF-sized (?)), then it would have also been aware of the fact that they ARE the dominant lifeform on certain planets, and to check for that.
Unfortunately it seems that Warcry's 'weak' answer is the most likely one for explaining that though.

Hmm... not a very cool comeback on my part, was it?

'Comeback' on my 'part' - sounds rude, doesn't it?
Sorry.
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