Character discussion : This Week 'Scorponok'

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Post by Darth Aux » Thu May 05, 2005 7:28 am

Scorponok said:

I'LL RIP YOU TO PIECES WITH MY BARE CLAWS, TEAR YOUR CIRCUITS OUT WITH MY TEETH AND SPIT YOUR DIODES BACK AT YOU!!

DIE UNICRON -- DIE!


Utter Class :D

However:

Scorponok also said:
HUUUU--PUH-PRIME? DID--
--DID...KUUU...I DO...GOOD?


PAH...Such heroic nonsense, Megatron would be turning in his grave to see a Decepticon sharing his dying moment with Prime.

Now is probably the point when Besty, Spidey, Storm Wolf, etc turn up with a pic of Megs sharing a dying moment with Prime. Oh well ther goes another battleship.
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Post by spiderfrommars » Thu May 05, 2005 8:39 am

G2 also brought home the price of war. Fortress Maximus, Spike and Hotspot were amongst it's many victims.

I can't help feeling I'm stating the obvious though.

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Post by Best First » Thu May 05, 2005 8:47 am

spiderfrommars wrote:G2 also brought home the price of war. Fortress Maximus, Spike and Hotspot were amongst it's many victims.

I can't help feeling I'm stating the obvious though.


sometimes it appears to be neccessary...
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Post by Legion » Thu May 05, 2005 2:58 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:G2 also brought home the price of war. Fortress Maximus, Spike and Hotspot were amongst it's many victims.



Max was just Spike's gimp, they deserved to be vaped... Hotspot however deserved so much better... :cry:

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Post by Señior's Covenant » Thu May 05, 2005 3:37 pm

Legion wrote:Max was just Spike's gimp...


Which itself was a pathetic waste.
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Post by ShadowSonic » Thu May 05, 2005 3:42 pm

Yeah, the comics did bring the horrors of war SOMETIMES, but not as often as say...Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta Gundam, Victory Gundam and the CCA Movie did. For every dead char we got groups killed and coming back no worse for wear. I still take BW for realistic combat and war since everyone whod die dthere (excpet Primal) stayed dead, and said death was acknowledged.

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Post by spiderfrommars » Thu May 05, 2005 4:04 pm

Well Dinobot more or less came back.

And what about the last part of Agenda? The Predacons are seemingly wiped out and then just turn up again in the next episode.

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Post by Señior's Covenant » Thu May 05, 2005 4:57 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:Well Dinobot more or less came back.

I know. :x If only they'd produced the Dark Glass story as an episode so it would have at least been explainable in how it happened. Hmph.
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Post by Best First » Thu May 05, 2005 5:39 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:Yeah, the comics did bring the horrors of war SOMETIMES, but not as often as say...


where do i say how often? Isit the same place i say i will worshio anything written by Furman? :roll:

Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta Gundam, Victory Gundam and the CCA Movie did.


Sorry, thought we were talking about Transformers. Nice Red Herring though.

For every dead char we got groups killed and coming back no worse for wear. I still take BW for realistic combat and war since everyone whod die dthere (excpet Primal) stayed dead, and said death was acknowledged.


how does acknowleging detah reflect war? ots of deaths in war aren't acknolwdged. And why would people come back worse for wear if they got repaired?

Combat in BW's is also often distinctly 'cartoony' and not realistic at all. Its not a bad thing as they play with it well but it doesn't support your arguement.

You are just avoiding the points you can't deal with.
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Post by ShadowSonic » Thu May 05, 2005 8:53 pm

I'm comparing TFs to other war fictions to show that it's not as good a war story as most anti-cartoon types say it is.

Death is warfare is acknowledged, maybe not for every last individual but as a whole it usually is, were any of the killed off TFs moruned or acknowledged in Underbase, Time Wars or EoE other than "We lost our troops/our forces are depleted"? Not really, in BW they acknowledged deaths of even background chars and single episode chars (Noble, Transmutate). Scorponock and Terrorsaur were forgottenabout, but BM Megs is a cold SOB.

Combat in BW was definately not considered cartoony, chars don't just shrug off fire like it's nothing, they actually get hurt. Yes they have the CR chamber for repairs, but when wounds are considered serious by them they usually ARE, in comparison to G1 where combat usually wasn't serious, guys get shot one moment and not be hurt at all, be shot again the next and be wounded like it is suddenly serious.

As for Dinobot, that wasn't really a ressurection, he was cloned and then given copies of his memories, not brought back to life.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu May 05, 2005 9:13 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:Combat in BW was definately not considered cartoony, chars don't just shrug off fire like it's nothing, they actually get hurt. Yes they have the CR chamber for repairs, but when wounds are considered serious by them they usually ARE, in comparison to G1 where combat usually wasn't serious, guys get shot one moment and not be hurt at all, be shot again the next and be wounded like it is suddenly serious.


Show me these comparison! - what on cybertron are you comparing!!!

In G1, lets see if I got this straight, a TF gets shot, but is ok, and the next time he gets shot, its really bad.
Ok thats just iffy to start with but anyhows.

id say %75 of the time, if someone gets hit in G1 they got hurt, you saw the repairs, they even ran storys about ppl being in the repair bay.

BW - use the CR chamber, everything is fine!

Actually the more I think about it, the more BW is very cartoony, and again the comic stands up for its sheer amazing depth, thanks mainly due to MR Furman once more.
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Post by Best First » Thu May 05, 2005 10:29 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:most anti-cartoon types


:roll:

Are you one of Commander Shockwave's alt ids?
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Post by ShadowSonic » Fri May 06, 2005 1:38 pm

Not really, I just read Impactor's posts. :lol:

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Post by Señior's Covenant » Fri May 06, 2005 2:03 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:Not really, I just read Impactor's posts. :lol:


Except where you just read Best First's right? ;)
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The "i" in "Señior" from "Señior's Covenant" is intentional and part of a stupid & cheesy inside joke from '02. Thank you for your concern.

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Post by ShadowSonic » Fri May 06, 2005 2:56 pm

Nah, I've been reading Impactor's anti-cartoon stuff long before this ;)

I also got the general anti-cartoon vibe from the comic review section where the reviewer of DW G1 #6 Volume 2 denounces DW's trake on TF origins as saying that TFs are good and bad simply becuase "They're made that way" and also stating the cartoon said the same thing in the FFOD origin tale, even thought that's obviously not what was stated in DW or the cartoon.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Fri May 06, 2005 4:38 pm

I like the cartoon in static form... single frames.

I am Anti-Cartoon as the cartoon is poo.

The comic is brillant, even now.
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Post by Stormwolf » Fri May 06, 2005 6:01 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I am Anti-Cartoon as the cartoon is poo.

The comic is brillant, even now.


Very true :)
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Post by Autobloke » Mon May 09, 2005 4:49 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I am Anti-Cartoon as the cartoon is poo.

It is? This explains my toilet problems then. Who'd have thought a cartoon could be so... pointy. Ouch!
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Post by BB Shockwave » Tue May 10, 2005 7:31 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:
ShadowSonic wrote:Combat in BW was definately not considered cartoony, chars don't just shrug off fire like it's nothing, they actually get hurt. Yes they have the CR chamber for repairs, but when wounds are considered serious by them they usually ARE, in comparison to G1 where combat usually wasn't serious, guys get shot one moment and not be hurt at all, be shot again the next and be wounded like it is suddenly serious.


Show me these comparison! - what on cybertron are you comparing!!!

In G1, lets see if I got this straight, a TF gets shot, but is ok, and the next time he gets shot, its really bad.
Ok thats just iffy to start with but anyhows.

id say %75 of the time, if someone gets hit in G1 they got hurt, you saw the repairs, they even ran storys about ppl being in the repair bay.

BW - use the CR chamber, everything is fine!

Actually the more I think about it, the more BW is very cartoony, and again the comic stands up for its sheer amazing depth, thanks mainly due to MR Furman once more.


Just something to add---

G1 Comic - Sunstreaker is wounded in Shockwave's first assault. He stays deactivated until Grimlock becomes leader!!! And through all this tome Ratchet often mentions how he's unable to fix him...

Beast Wars: Waspinator is blown up, shredded, flattened and otherwise annihilated more then once during an episode only to have his ashes been put into the magical CR Chamber and emerge unscatshced a few minutes later.

Which of these two is more realistic represantation of war?
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Post by Best First » Tue May 10, 2005 1:48 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:
I also got the general anti-cartoon vibe from the comic review section where the reviewer of DW G1 #6 Volume 2 denounces DW's trake on TF origins as saying that TFs are good and bad simply becuase "They're made that way" and also stating the cartoon said the same thing in the FFOD origin tale, even thought that's obviously not what was stated in DW or the cartoon.


ah, its obvious again is it? Like peoples heads falling off obvioslsy being a realistic depiction of war?

Care to explain what that DW issue obviousdly does say? What does the cartoon actually say?

my review actually states:

Another thing I feel compelled to comment on is Mick's seeming attempt at fusing the two conflicting Transformer origins. In the original cartoon the Transformers were essentially merchandise, and their factions reflected this fact, whereas in the original comic all Transformers were originally Autobots, and the Decepticons were a splinter faction. Here Mick has Shockwave tell us that the Transformers were originally one race, as per the Marvel origin, but that the 'bots and 'cons had different functions (to defend and conquer respectively), as per the cartoon origin.

Now, the issue that many have with the cartoon origin is that it is determinist, both factions were essentially 'built' that way, which to some, including myself, robs the characters of choice and therefore the story of much drama (a flaw that was also apparent in the conclusion of G1 Vol 1). With the 'new history' the factions' different functions are apparently determined 'genetically'. So really what we have here is still the cartoon origin, but with rather feeble lip service to the original comic origin – but at the end of the day Transformers are either 'made good' or 'made bad'... now where's the fun in that? Essentially the two origins have been superficially fused in a way that pretty much eliminates the better one and retains the flaws of the weaker one. One cannot help but wonder how much this is going to impact the rest of the series.


its almost as if i posses some analytical ability isn't it?

Anti-cartoon just seems to mean 'posseses the ability to spot that it is qualatitively not as good'
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Post by Señior's Covenant » Tue May 10, 2005 2:13 pm

:lol:
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Post by ShadowSonic » Tue May 10, 2005 10:12 pm

Dude, just becuase one group is meant for fighting and the other is meant for more ordinary duties doesn't mean they are "good" and "bad' because they are "made that way". It just means that one group is more aggressive and more suited for hostile conditions than the other, who are more flexible and variable in their lives which are non-warlike.

Honestly, thae way you're thinking goes, you probably think the Klingons from Star Trek are inherently bad too jsut becuase they're agressive, while it's obivous that they are not.

As I said, in the comics the Liege Maximo himself stated the whole "Decepticons are made to counter the Autobots' good", I don't see why he'd lie at that point to Rook. Yes you can bring out the whole "He's a big bad guy and his kind are prone to boasting and megalomania" but it's all speculation on your part too so we we're more at a stalemate than anything.

That said, I can accept the stuff Skir and Bob/Larry said in BW and BM regarding TF religion and spirituality a heckuva lot better than Furman's "God of pure evil/Chaos" kiddy stuff. Maybe if he tried to make it a true religion thing I'd like it more, but as it stands it seems more like...a plot device to push the story. Yes it was the same in BM but done in a more interesting way.

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Post by Guest » Tue May 10, 2005 10:25 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:Dude, just becuase one group is meant for fighting and the other is meant for more ordinary duties doesn't mean they are "good" and "bad' because they are "made that way". It just means that one group is more aggressive and more suited for hostile conditions than the other, who are more flexible and variable in their lives which are non-warlike.

Honestly, thae way you're thinking goes, you probably think the Klingons from Star Trek are inherently bad too jsut becuase they're agressive, while it's obivous that they are not.


Who is this aimed at?

I think it's pretty ubiquitous here that 'good' and 'bad' were just labels, and the individuals resided on a very wide moral spectrum.

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Post by Brendocon » Wed May 11, 2005 8:13 am

ShadowSonic wrote:Dude, just becuase one group is meant for fighting and the other is meant for more ordinary duties doesn't mean they are "good" and "bad' because they are "made that way". It just means that one group is more aggressive and more suited for hostile conditions than the other, who are more flexible and variable in their lives which are non-warlike.


Right. The issue is the suggestion that the line between the defenders and the conquerors equates to the line between the Autobots and the Decepticons.

I can't recall Shockwave's dialogue and I can't be arsed to check it, but the basic gist is the above. Not that some were built to conquer and some were built to defend, but the inference is that those who went onto become the Decepticons were those who were built to conquer, et cetera.

It implies that the split in race is a direct result of the difference in function, rather than individual belief (which we can pretty much all agree is the real defining factor). Ergo it's determinist.
Grrr. Argh.

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Post by ShadowSonic » Wed May 11, 2005 1:04 pm

But it's the same in the comics, Those who became Cons there were the ones who were more strongly affected by Primus' role as defender of the Universe, except they didn't know what to defend and turned on others of their own kind. Or you can just believe the Maximo and think the Cons are the way they are becuase they're inherently evil.

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Post by Best First » Wed May 11, 2005 1:49 pm

Duuuuuuuuuude!

But it's the same in the comics, Those who became Cons there were the ones who were more strongly affected by Primus' role as defender of the Universe, except they didn't know what to defend and turned on others of their own kind. Or you can just believe the Maximo and think the Cons are the way they are because they're inherently evil.


The clear dividing factor between the two is that they comic origin origin does not contain 2 distinct groups who were created who went on to become bot’s and con’s. The aspect of choice remains, where as the ‘one to defend’ (Heroic Autobots) one to conquer (Evil Decepticons) clearly suggest you are automatically in one group and sucks out the element of choice and therefore significant scope for moral dilemmas and character development.

Ergo your Klingon’s example is irrelevant – still another lame attempt to add to your list of attempts to put words in my mouth.

I note you continue to keep paraphrasing maximo to support your point when the actual quotes don’t. Maximo never states that Primus intedned Maximo to be evil, and (as previously stated) it would make littles sense if he did, as Primus already has an evil counterpoint in Unicron. I note you don’t attempt to pick apart the rationale behind my ‘speculation’ that Maxiom’s bigging up of evil is self serving or the fact that his own actions contradict his claims. Wonder why…

The most likley scenario seems to be that Primus, being a bit of a sap, imbued his creations with free will, and Maximo chose a darker path of his own violation. If Decepticon’s had been intended to balance the Autobots from the start they would have existed as a group from the start and the civil war would have raged from Cybertron’s inception. It didn’t.

As for having no reason to lie to Rook? No reason to tell the troops in your service that the service they are in service of is in fact not destined to persist and may in fact get its ass kicked by the forces of ‘good’? Yes, I can see why he wouldn’t have any need or desire to lie if his claims are in fact a bit bolstered – well argued.

I can see what you are saying about God of pure good/evil being kiddy…although I’m not sure how such concepts don’t constitute a ‘real religion’ Christianity anyone?
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Post by Señior's Covenant » Wed May 11, 2005 2:13 pm

Can I ask something? A general question to everyone.

How do you think the split between to the two factions came to be?
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Post by Brendocon » Wed May 11, 2005 2:23 pm

Radical fringe blokeys rounded up discontents and mounted a takeover bid, wasn't it?

Leading to a whole "with us or against us" thing where TFs got sucked into either faction or were left as neutrals.
Grrr. Argh.

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Post by Señior's Covenant » Wed May 11, 2005 2:36 pm

Yeah, that's the original story given in the beginning of the series, but something more has to be in there. How would Maximo fit into that?
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Post by Best First » Wed May 11, 2005 3:08 pm

he doesn't have to - there is no evidence to suggest that he played a part in the formation of the original Decepticon's. he could have been off planet for all we know - Prime for example did not seem to recognise his name at the end of G2 and he is a as well versed in TF lore as anyone.

Seems to me he was one of the arliest TF's but was not a persistant influence (may even have been dispatched by one of the other 'first' TFs, in a similar manner to the Fallen) but came back at some point armed with the knowledge of biomorphic reporduction and started his own wee cult.

or something - either way i don'tthink the formatin of Meg's Decep's needs anything in the way of retconning.
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