Character discussion : This Week 'Scorponok'

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Character discussion : This Week 'Scorponok'

Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Mon May 02, 2005 11:48 am

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Haha - Scorpy and Zarak!
The Decepticon with a heart?
Were those claws even usefull
Good thing he transformed into a scorpion with that name?
A sure fan favourite?
And who was in controll Scorpy or Zarak?

yours to discuss this week in CD!... :roll:
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Post by ShadowSonic » Mon May 02, 2005 4:17 pm

One of my faves, he was right step in the direction of introducing moral ambiguity into G1 (something only BM suceeded at).

To bad though he was so pathetic as a City-Bot :p

I genuinely loved how Budiansky showed how Zarak was a good hearted man who was slowly corrupted by Scorponock's evil, but later on, both Bob and FUrman showed us that Scorponock himself was being corrupted towards a better path by Zarak. Shows how important one little guy can be compared to big robo-killer.

His last line is a tearjerker as well...

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Post by Bouncelot » Mon May 02, 2005 9:22 pm

Definitely a good character - the portrayal of Zarak in the Headmasters miniseries was one of the few genuinely good things about it, and Scorpy's character development under Furman was fantastic, and of course, his death was one of the big emotional moments of the comic.

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Post by Best First » Tue May 03, 2005 2:50 pm

Best Decep ever. Best G1 Death.

yay.

I think Characters like Scorps and Carny ("There's only two things i fear!") show that for many being a Decepticon was an outlet for urges that the seemingly inwad looking and rather repressed Cybertronian way of life prior to the war failed to provide. They represent much more rounded characters than the standard 'i'm evil cos i'm evil' rubbish that you seem to get with most other con's outside the leadership. I suppose Bob actually did an ok job with Skullgrin on that front too, eevn if it was through some appalling stories.

This was also well underscored by Snarler's concern that Carnivac's defection could easily turn into an epidemic if many realised that the war had left the 'bots and 'cons with much in common.

the best thing about all this is it makes you feel like there is scope for some evolution or end to the conflict, rather than just 'we good, you bad' fight fight fight.

:)
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Re: Character discussion : This Week 'Scorponok'

Post by Legion » Tue May 03, 2005 2:58 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:The Decepticon with a heart?

Technically yes, but then all the *masters did when binary bonded! ;)
Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Were those claws even usefull

Must have been a bugger in everyday life... good job he was in command, he could just order someone else do to the more menial things... ;)
Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Good thing he transformed into a scorpion with that name?

Yeah, wouldn't quite be the same if he'd been reformatted into say, a car... (i'm looking at you Alternators)
Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:A sure fan favourite?

Seems to be, but probably purely due to the his portrayal in the comic, i mean in the cartoon he was in what, 1 ep? and the toy, whilst big wasn't that great really...
Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:And who was in controll Scorpy or Zarak?

At first Scorpy overwhelmed Zarak (in Headmasters mini) but later it seemed that it was more and more Zarak... although i'm all for the two extremes (Zarak, basically good at heart and Scorpy, rotten Con to the core) slowly merging into a middle ground, but it did't really come across quite like that to me, it was too Zaraky in Furman's portrail.

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Post by ShadowSonic » Tue May 03, 2005 5:46 pm

The theory about why Zarak slowly took over Scorponock (And how Hi-Q and Prime fused together as well) was that somehow the energy from the Underbase affected them (they got closest to it, after Starscream of course).

This theory was made up mainly because none of the other Masters ever went through the same thing as Prime and Scorpy, and we never got an explanation why.

And Furman seemed pretty serious about the "Decepticons are inherently evil due to their DNA" or some other nonsense, so I think it's safe to say that it was due to Zarak that Scorpy slowly became a semi-good guy.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue May 03, 2005 6:15 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:The theory about why Zarak slowly took over Scorponock (And how Hi-Q and Prime fused together as well) was that somehow the energy from the Underbase affected them (they got closest to it, after Starscream of course).


And why would the underbase energy effect them in this way?

ShadowSonic wrote:This theory was made up mainly because none of the other Masters ever went through the same thing as Prime and Scorpy, and we never got an explanation why.


Ill just go with the easier 'bonding process' ie, thats what happens.
We dont need to know about the other masters in detail because, well they arnt as important as the TF in command roles.


ShadowSonic wrote:And Furman seemed pretty serious about the "Decepticons are inherently evil due to their DNA" or some other nonsense, so I think it's safe to say that it was due to Zarak that Scorpy slowly became a semi-good guy.


What would we do without Furman! - Genius...


Q: Is that Scorpion mode truly one of the lamest Alt modes ever?

Scorpy seemed to command a number of COns taht were either Master bonded (ooo-err) or pretenders or somthing. Im not sure how the pretenders fit in, but do you think the master cons worked with Scorpy because of Zarak, highlighting that perhaps the masters are in controll of the con itself?

I cant belive any self-respecting con would take orders from a fleshling?
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Post by Best First » Tue May 03, 2005 6:26 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:
And Furman seemed pretty serious about the "Decepticons are inherently evil due to their DNA" or some other nonsense, so I think it's safe to say that it was due to Zarak that Scorpy slowly became a semi-good guy.


There is nothing in Furman's writing anywhere i can recall along those lines.

The only place we have anything quite so rubbish was in the gash pile that was DW G1 V1 6.
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Post by ShadowSonic » Tue May 03, 2005 6:54 pm

In the last issues (aster unicron) Grimlock talked about how the war was about genetics, that the Cons were genetically evil and the Bots good, they were counterparts of opposing spectrums to balance each other out.

All throughout G2, it was referenced that the G2 Cons were totally amorla and stuff due to their DNA and how the biomorphic replication process diluted them or something.

At the end of G2, the Liege Maximo told Rook that when Primus made the good Autobots, he had to make evil Decepticons (starting with Maximo) to balance them out.

And the DW comics neevr say that the Cons were genetically evil, they just say that Autobots are more protectors and laborers, while Decepticons are conquerors and enforcers, nothing evil about that. It's a caste system.

People jsut over-generalize what Shockwave was saying in DW becuase they don't like anything cartoon-related.

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Post by Ozz » Tue May 03, 2005 7:13 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:And the DW comics neevr say that the Cons were genetically evil, they just say that Autobots are more protectors and laborers, while Decepticons are conquerors and enforcers, nothing evil about that. It's a caste system.

People jsut over-generalize what Shockwave was saying in DW becuase they don't like anything cartoon-related.


And some people just don't read very careful. ;) Best First (I assume those paragraphs relate to what he said) mentioned #6 of Generation 1 v1, in which Prime mentions the Prime Directive, the programming which predestines Transformers to be good or evil.

As for Grimlock's talk about genetics, I always assumed that was a metaphor.

EDIT: Oh, on-topic. Scorponok's great. One of the better characters in all Transformers media. And I really like Zarak plot in Headmasters, when he slowly gives in to Scorponok and finally loses. "The battle... I hear it! It grows... it swells... it calls to me..."
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Post by Autobloke » Tue May 03, 2005 7:19 pm

No-one's mentioned how evil Zarak could really be at times. He was happy to let some of the newer Headmasters stomp on the Roadjammers in the comic - before he found out the HM bodies had been jammed. And the cringeworthy wrestling episodes with Roadhandler - he was a bit heartless in that too.
Apart from that though, I don't think Zarak was ever really portayed as 'evil' - he was just a little power hungry and it got beyond him at times.
Perhaps Scorponok was similar in personality and it just took him a bit of time to catch a clue to it.
And personally, I loved the scorpion mode - even if the toy was a brick. That horrible 'clicking' noise from bending the tail always made me wince - it sounded like I was breaking it.
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Post by Best First » Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:In the last issues (aster unicron) Grimlock talked about how the war was about genetics, that the Cons were genetically evil and the Bots good, they were counterparts of opposing spectrums to balance each other out.


and what makes Grimlock correct? Grimlock states that Primus is wrong, that he created 2 races but next issue Hi Q tells Grimlock that he understands how he actually straddles the line between both sides, and Grimlock sagging response says it all - Grimlock himself actually embodies the notion that ulitmatly it is all about choice, aboiut fighting the darker aspects of yourself. Its almost as if the whole point is for Grimlock to come to the realiseation that things are not that simple see?

All throughout G2, it was referenced that the G2 Cons were totally amorla and stuff due to their DNA and how the biomorphic replication process diluted them or something.


they are amoral becuase there is nothing of Primus left in them because it has been 'streached to thin', Primus essence is present in both the Cybertronian bots and cons so this explaings nothing.

At the end of G2, the Liege Maximo told Rook that when Primus made the good Autobots, he had to make evil Decepticons (starting with Maximo) to balance them out.


Actually Maximo states that all Decepticons come from him, nowhere does he say that Primus 'had to make evil Deceptions'. Equally it is not clear that Primus intended Maximo to be evil, seeing as we know Primus was already in balance to another evil force a requirement to make something evil in fact seems unlikley. On top of all that you have to bear in mind that uber bad guys have a tendancy toward hyperbole, especially when we also know that the Decepticons that we saw as part of the war were a faction that developed out of the Autobots, founded by Megatron.

And the DW comics neevr say that the Cons were genetically evil, they just say that Autobots are more protectors and laborers, while Decepticons are conquerors and enforcers, nothing evil about that. It's a caste system.


DW volume one issue 6 involves talk about having directive to follow rather than making choices for oneself, its part of Primes dull monologue about why he respects humans. The implication is TFs are predisposed to a certain mentality by virtue of faction...

...oh look you just sucked all the drama out of the franchise.

Being in a caste doesn't take away the inante ability to choose.

People jsut over-generalize what Shockwave was saying in DW becuase they don't like anything cartoon-related.


i directly referenced issue 6 of volume one, which doesn't contain Shockwave at all actualy. Good of you to massively generalise what people think though, very compelling. I didn't like it because it was a sh*t comic myself.
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Post by Kaylee » Tue May 03, 2005 7:38 pm

Shockwave did it!!! {nervous tick}

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Post by Autobloke » Tue May 03, 2005 7:47 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:Shockwave did it!!! {nervous tick}

Okay, that's it! (goes to get length of wood with big nail stuck in it, and to pass out lit torches to an angry mob of villagers).
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Post by ShadowSonic » Tue May 03, 2005 8:21 pm

Primus himself knows that there are two races within the Cybertronian people, that's why when he saw Galvatron's faction emblem he said "We are now one race" or something like that. Why would he act this way if he meant for there to be one race?

Maximo sadi "You cannot destroy evil, it must always exist as a counterforce, a balance in anture that must always be maintained, no matter how noble the founding intention."

The implication of the line is that while Primus may have intended for the TFs to all be good, the good/evil balance had to be maintained so one was totally good, another totally bad, and that the Decepticons were a necessary by-product.

I'm sorry about the DW mess-up, I thought you were talking about Shockwave's dialogue in V2 #6, now V1.

I didn't like it either, so I kinda forgot about most of it.

I think the Prime Directives line refers to TF having guidlines, not true objectives. They tell them some things, but they are free to change their views.

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Post by Best First » Tue May 03, 2005 9:13 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:Primus himself knows that there are two races within the Cybertronian people, that's why when he saw Galvatron's faction emblem he said "We are now one race" or something like that. Why would he act this way if he meant for there to be one race?


Because a decepticon has sought him out to help him stop Unicron?

Anyway, he says i see we are now one, he never mentions race. He could just as easily be reffering to the warring factions, whch given what we know about the origins of the war seems far more likley.

Maximo sadi "You cannot destroy evil, it must always exist as a counterforce, a balance in anture that must always be maintained, no matter how noble the founding intention."


Yes, but seeing as Maximo is evil as previoulsy stated his outbursts should be taken with a pinch of salt. He's not going to sit there saying 'evil is rubbish and will ultimatly lose' when he has clearly bet all his chips on it is he?

The implication of the line is that while Primus may have intended for the TFs to all be good, the good/evil balance had to be maintained so one was totally good, another totally bad, and that the Decepticons were a necessary by-product.


So Primus' creation knows better than Primus? Its feasable but not a decisive arguement, and again as stated Primus' actions are already counter balanced by Unicron, so the notion that Primus' creations have to be in balance seems rather dubious, especially when the only source we have is, hmm, really evil guy. Plus Leige's armies are terraforming the crap out of the entire Universe - its clear he has no interest in balance and therefore the notion that he believes its inevitable becomes somewhat unstuck. Its like Jhiaxus claiming that they left a token presence on Cybertron as if the G2ers were actually in charge at the time of their leaving, when based on everything we have seen prior to this it's emminently likley just self serving hyperbole.

To me the best and most interesting way to explain the conflict within the TF race is that Primus created a warrior race with the aim of protecting the Universe but then gave them nothing to fight for. Its not about balancing good and evil across the race, its about each TF reconciling their own morality with the fact they are probably the most powerful race in the Universe. Even Megsy's motto (or one of them) 'Peace Through Tyranny' points to attaining a kind of order, which implies he does not really see himself as evil - he's just arrogant enough to believe he should run it all and callous enough that he will trample those who impede him in the name of his vision - like any Dictator he does not see himself as evil.

I think the Prime Directives line refers to TF having guidlines, not true objectives. They tell them some things, but they are free to change their views.


He states that he respects humans because they have to choose, this clearly implies that TFs are at the very least limited in their choice. I yalk about it a lot here
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Post by Bouncelot » Tue May 03, 2005 9:55 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Scorpy seemed to command a number of COns taht were either Master bonded (ooo-err) or pretenders or somthing. Im not sure how the pretenders fit in, but do you think the master cons worked with Scorpy because of Zarak, highlighting that perhaps the masters are in controll of the con itself?

I cant belive any self-respecting con would take orders from a fleshling?


I think it has something to do with the fact that they were under Scorpy's command before *master and pretender technology came along, and that it was that faction of Decepticons who developed all those technologies.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Wed May 04, 2005 12:50 am

I think the Maximo evil dialogue is just him explaining the yin and yang of the universen, not specfically TF.

Once more I see no problem with what Furman wrote.
In comparison, the cartoon sucked! yaya

Shockwave did it!

:oops:
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Post by Best First » Wed May 04, 2005 8:31 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:
Once more I see no problem with what Furman wrote.
In comparison, the cartoon sucked! yaya



Who's Yaya? Did he enjoy it?
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Post by ShadowSonic » Wed May 04, 2005 1:52 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I think the Maximo evil dialogue is just him explaining the yin and yang of the universen, not specfically TF.

Once more I see no problem with what Furman wrote.
In comparison, the cartoon sucked! yaya

Shockwave did it!

:oops:


The G1 Cartoon was okay if you're looking for entertainment, if you're referring to it as a war story then yeah it stunk, but the comics weren't much better at showing what war is like either. I prefer BW and BM if I want a serious story.

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Post by Best First » Wed May 04, 2005 2:00 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:
The G1 Cartoon was okay if you're looking for entertainment, if you're referring to it as a war story then yeah it stunk, but the comics weren't much better at showing what war is like either.


Balls. Well there are stories that don't the highlights of the run, Dinobot Hunt, Crisis of Command, The Return to Cybertron Arc Time Wars, Legacy of Unicron, The whole final story arc and G2 for example clearly contrast massively with the cartoonn in terms of the portrayal of war.

You need to state your case, not just make statements.

I prefer BW and BM if I want a serious story.


while i love BW the notion that it is somehow more serious or a better portrayal of war than G1 at its height seems somehat odd when people would be regularly blown to bits only ro rebuild themselves in some epidoes and blown to bits and be dead in others. BM i have not seen enough to comment on.
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Post by Brendocon » Wed May 04, 2005 2:06 pm

Best First wrote:Who's Yaya? Did he enjoy it?


Tunisian centre half who joined Saints at the beginning of the season to replace "One Size" Fitz Hall, but never actually made it into the first team because we changed managers six times within the subsequent half hour.

It's spelt Yahia, though. Pronounciation is Yaya. :oops:
Grrr. Argh.

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Post by ShadowSonic » Wed May 04, 2005 2:47 pm

WHat I mean is that in G1 chars would get blown up and be considered dead but still come back. I mean yes we got stuff like "Return to Cybertron" and "Time Wars" but later on we saw in "Aspects of Evil" that Galvy and co were still alive due to time screw-ups or something.

And after things like Underbase or Edge of Extinction we saw that virtually all the good guys got ressurected no worse for wear and Cybertron was "reborn". WHen people die in war they stay dead, and homes usually stay ruined when they get THAT bad. The comic showed us that virtually all TFs were soldiers now and had no tothers lives to lead, the cartoon showed us peaceful TFs who wanted no part in the war, and how despite that they lost everything simply becuase they were kind to two strangers (I'm talking about Fight or Flee), that showed that civilians payed the price in war too.

And please, don'tt ell me how OOC everyone was in that episode, if Furman had written it exactly the same way you'd all say "Well, they were fighting for so long they've become jaded, and destroying Paradron was the only way".

The cartoon hardly ever even referenced the fatc it was war, so I stopped thinking of it like one and just saw it as an entertainment cartoon.
War cartoons are like Mobile Suit Gundam or Exo-Squad.

BW, the chars never suffered extreme damage, a TF getting an arm blown off or being dismembered but still active obviously didn't hurt very bad or wasn't crippling. So it was easy to show us that they could be easily re-assembled. When CHars died on BW they sayed dead with the exception of Primal, and there they gave a good explanation for how he came back.

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Post by Señior's Covenant » Wed May 04, 2005 3:38 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:...or Exo-Squad.


I miss that show.
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Post by Best First » Wed May 04, 2005 6:20 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:WHat I mean is that in G1 chars would get blown up and be considered dead but still come back. I mean yes we got stuff like "Return to Cybertron" and "Time Wars" but later on we saw in "Aspects of Evil" that Galvy and co were still alive due to time screw-ups or something.

And after things like Underbase or Edge of Extinction we saw that virtually all the good guys got ressurected no worse for wear and Cybertron was "reborn". WHen people die in war they stay dead,


Right... so a war between big space robots has to be exactly the same as a war between humans? Why shouldn't characters whose remains were retreived and personalities intact return? Why do you think the war has gone on for so long?

Oh, and if you can tell me where:

Sandstorm
Catilla
Rack and Ruin
Roadbuster
Barrage
Flywheels
Emirate Xaaron
Misfire
Scorponok
Landmine
Ransack
Snarler
Earhquake
Tornado
Cyclonus
Scourge
Topspin
Twintwist
Highbrow
Centurion
Waverider
Brainstorm
Finback
Bombburst
or Hardhead come back from the dead i would be most grateful.

Plus howis time repairing itself and worse an explantion than Primal's return in BW?

"Comic brings back popular character shocker".


And please, don'tt ell me how OOC everyone was in that episode, if Furman had written it exactly the same way you'd all say "Well, they were fighting for so long they've become jaded, and destroying Paradron was the only way".


**** off telling me how i think. I don't respond to your points saying "well if it was animated you would string together ill though out point's in its defence" do i? If Furman had written the cartoon i would think he was a bag of **** writer - i like things on their merits not because they have a name attached to it, hence my luke warm response to War Within when some people were jizzing over it. Your inept generalisations only open you up to attack so i would suggest it is in your interests to knock it off.

The cartoon hardly ever even referenced the fatc it was war, so I stopped thinking of it like one and just saw it as an entertainment cartoon.
War cartoons are like Mobile Suit Gundam or Exo-Squad.


Yeah, 2 factions fighting - no war there. War is the back drop to the whole thing, the fcat they reference it poorly does not alter that.

"Oh! But if i redefine it as something else then it does."

Nope. The whole opening premise is its a battle for survival - they just never go anywhere with it.

BW, the chars never suffered extreme damage, a TF getting an arm blown off or being dismembered


that's dismembered folks - remeber that when a robot is killed in the comic but comes back it is unrealistic, but here being dismembered is ok because it...

obviously didn't hurt very bad or wasn't crippling.


So. TF's being dismembered and being fine is ok to you, but people getting knocked off and later being repaired isn't? Most convenient. If not at all compelling as a line of arguement...
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Post by Guest » Wed May 04, 2005 7:08 pm

Best First wrote:Who's Yaya? Did he enjoy it?

The theory is that he's a member of this very website forums!

All About Yaya.

;)

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Post by Autobloke » Wed May 04, 2005 8:33 pm

(ducks in quick before the bullets start flying again)

Scorponok was green and purple. I think he was pretty.
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Post by Best First » Wed May 04, 2005 9:07 pm

Rebis wrote:
Best First wrote:Who's Yaya? Did he enjoy it?

The theory is that he's a member of this very website forums!

All About Yaya.

;)


ironically he says yada yada.

HA HA HA.

:lurk:
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Post by ShadowSonic » Wed May 04, 2005 9:29 pm

Hey, in BW whenever a guy got dismembered like that it wasn't treated like it was a serious wound, but in G1 guys got injured/offline for less and considered dead...and then would later on come back like it was nothing, but in BW whenever a char got seriously/fatally injured they treated it like death and guess what? They died and DIDN'T come back, except Primal and that was explained.

Just becuase there's two groups fighting in a show doesn't make it war, explain all those Superhero TV shows where groups fight each other.

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Post by Best First » Wed May 04, 2005 10:09 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:Hey, in BW whenever a guy got dismembered like that it wasn't treated like it was a serious wound, but in G1 guys got injured/offline for less and considered dead...and then would later on come back like it was nothing, but in BW whenever a char got seriously/fatally injured they treated it like death and guess what? They died and DIDN'T come back, except Primal and that was explained.


Ah, now you have repeated yourself i agree with you entirely.

:roll:

It was explained in the comic - they got repaired, see? Its not difficult Mr Repeato. Is it me?

Just becuase there's two groups fighting in a show doesn't make it war, explain all those Superhero TV shows where groups fight each other.


The ones that start on a planet plauged by civil WAR that has led to energy resources on the planet dwindling to the point where representatives of one side leaves the planet but the opposing faction, determined to wipe them out and end the CONFLICT, follows them resulting in their crashing on another planet where they wake up and continue their WAR?

Oh wait, that was Transformers.

next!
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