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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:22 am
by Yaya
Professor Smooth wrote:We've seen young Jacob's ghost running around the island, right? Would that mean that Jacob died when he was younger?
:eek:

*brain explodes*

Thinking back on the last episode, it's brilliant and maddening. It presents itself as "here are all the answers," but really, there are little things that turn all them into more questions.
Such is Lost. I know a lot of people saying they will be livid if they don't get all the answers. But personally, I like things left open for interpretation to some degree. Sure, the basics should be answered, but the details don't have to be. I've enjoyed this show for the journey of the characters primarily, and the mystery of the island secondarily. Both have combined to make it one of my favorite TV shows of all time, certainly my fav sci-fi/fantasy TV show ever. [/quote]
Anybody see the two preview clips for the next episode?
Didn't realize there were any. Have to go find this.

Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 3:01 am
by Warcry
Yaya wrote:Thing is, it was MiB who said it, so it doesn't have to make sense or be true. He's a manipulator, saying whatever he needs to to get what he wants done. Anything coming out of MiB could be lies.
Which is fine as far as it goes, except that:

a) All of the lies that he told Richard were tailored to fit in with Richard's highly-religious view of the world. This...not so much. If it wasn't true, then it was completely out of left field.

b) If the black smoke isn't Jacob's real brother, why is it constrained by whatever Mother did to keep the brothers from hurting each other?

c) The writers wouldn't spend an entire episode laying out MiB's backstory if the person we were following wasn't actually him. It would be a complete waste of the third-last episode of the series.

MiB being Jacob's brother makes complete sense based on the evidence we've seen. MiB not being Jacob's brother makes no sense and undermines everything we were shown in the episode. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not true, since this is Lost we're talking about. I'm just saying that I know which horse my money would be on.

Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:44 pm
by Yaya
Warcry wrote: b) If the black smoke isn't Jacob's real brother, why is it constrained by whatever Mother did to keep the brothers from hurting each other?
There is constraint because of the "Smokey can't kill any candidate" rule. It's the reason why he couldn't kill the people in the sub himself also.

Likely, the prevailing theory that Smokey is the MiB, or at least, MiB is part of Smokey, is true. But I wouldn't be surprised if they threw out a curveball.

Conclusive evidence would be if MiB called Jacob "brother" in a prior episode. I simply can't remember. Do you recall it?

Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 3:18 pm
by Brendocon
Not-Locke did say earlier this season about how he had a mother who was insane.

[composite word including 'f*ck'] the Smoke Monster, I want Taller Ghost Walt and Crazy Claire answers.

Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 3:26 pm
by Yaya
Brendocon wrote:Not-Locke did say earlier this season about how he had a mother who was insane.
Good point. He did.

I stand corrected. MiB is Smokey, at least part of him.

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:59 pm
by Professor Smooth
Epic episode. Personal highlights:

Sawyer: I killed them, didn't I? The look on his face as he says it... Wow.

Ben: He doesn't get to save his daughter. Stunning. And the really twisted thing is, I agree with him. He shouldn't get to save her. Not after what Charles did to Alex. I like Penny and everything, but Ben deserves his vengeance.

Ben (runner up): Did you say there were more people to kill? I can't get a bead on Ben anymore. I thought I'd pretty much had him figured out by now, but...nope.

Jacob: It's just a chalk line in a cave, Kate. Sly little nod to the fans who love to read so much into every little detail.

Jacob (again): (paraphrase) Oh, seriously, piss off. Your lives all sucked before I brought you here. Don't try to act like I plucked you out something wonderful.

And, the big one (if I've got this right): You've got to let go.

The detonation of the nuclear weapon really did (as Juliet said) work. The "alternate reality" is the real world and "the island" only continues to exist because of the people who can't just let it go. Once everybody (and it does have to be everybody) has let go, the island will cease to exist. Ben's side-story provided some evidence for this. Now, in the "alternate reality" he's got Alex thinking of him (kindly) as a father.

Go down the list:

Jack's got a good relationship with his son and half-sister.
Locke will probably walk again.
Ben has a good relationship with his adopted daughter.
Miles and his father are on good terms.
Hurley's with Libby and happy.
Jin and Sun's baby has just been born.
Desmond and Penny are (apparently) dating.

Things with Sayid, Sawyer, Kate (and maybe Juliet) are still unresolved, but it's possible that after they "let go..."

Sayid and Kate are cleared. Kate gets together with Jack.
Sayid and Nadia... hmmm...
Sawyer meets Juliet at the concert (and, perhaps learns that the con-man he'd sworn to kill is all-but dead in a nursing home).

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:21 pm
by Brendocon
Right, so Desmond can enter The Cave and access the Source at the Heart of The Island because he's immune to the electromagnetic energy that would fry everybody else. Bingo.

Still not sure about the LA World. Jack's mysteriously reappearing cut neck and missing appendix... the way it's populated by everybody from The Island, regardless of where they should be. It's almost as if Los Angeles is all that exists, some weird construct where the survivors of 815 have been dumped to live in some shared hallucination with the ghosts of the people who died there... happily receiving everything they ever wanted, but only seeing through it when they experience lurve (or pain... make your own gag about them being the same thing).

Of course the important question that's still unresolved is where/when Rose and Bernard are.

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:21 pm
by Yaya
I think Ben is thinking of the greater good now. He's got something up his sleeve for Smokey.

Regarding the "got to let go" issue, suprisingly my brother felt this was what the island was all about from the first season. He thought that they were sent to the island to resolve lingering problems that would allow them to move on. If he's right, I'll not hear the end of it.

Loved the whole "I knew that guy always had a God complex". :)

Speaking of God complexes, is it possible their lives would have ended up as good as they are in the flash sideways had the plane not crashed. I mean, Jacob claims he brought them to the island because their lives were ****. But looks like had Oceanic made it, their lives would have been quite nice. In other words, Jacob is looking more and more like the major [composite word including 'f*ck'] up. First, he creates Smokey. Then, he proceeds to ruin so many lives.

Gonna miss this show. Have to say, I'm hard pressed to think about a better one in all my years of watching TV. Certainly, in the realms of sci-fi/fantasy, I don't think you can beat it. But what's more surprising is that, despite it's fantasy premise, it's more human than so many other shows that aim to capture reality. It's almost a dialogue on the human condition, of human struggle, in the guise of otherworldliness. I can appreciate this show in so many ways.

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:33 pm
by Yaya
And I think Desmond is the key.

Something tells me the island will be destroyed, killing everyone on it, but that Desmond will save everyone by combining the two realities, making the flash-sideways the one true reality.

And I still think John Locke isn't done yet.

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:28 am
by Brendocon
Yaya wrote:But looks like had Oceanic made it, their lives would have been quite nice.
Debatable. The LAverse isn't just what would have happened if the plane hadn't crashed... or what would have happened if the pilot hadn't turned around in the journey - it's what would have happened if the island had sunk in the 70s.

Except it isn't. Because if the island had sunk, then the psychic who knew the plane was going to crash never would have manufactured a story about there being a couple in LA looking to adopt Claire's baby. So she shouldn't have been on the plane. And there shouldn't have been somebody waiting for her on the other side.

Which means something else is afoot.

But yes, it's been clear for a while that Jacob's a [composite word including 'f*ck']-up.

And Locke's back at school 2? days after being run-over and having surgery? Hardcore.

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 10:27 am
by Professor Smooth
Hey Jacob, if you'd have just written Locke an email saying that he could WALK AROUND a haunted jungle island forever protecting the earth against whatever the hell it is, he'd have swam over from LA. You didn't need to go to the trouble of filling up (and then crashing) a trans-continental aircraft. You dick.

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:57 pm
by Shanti418
Professor Smooth wrote:Hey Jacob, if you'd have just written Locke an email saying that he could WALK AROUND a haunted jungle island forever protecting the earth against whatever the hell it is, he'd have swam over from LA. You didn't need to go to the trouble of filling up (and then crashing) a trans-continental aircraft. You dick.
lol. Tru dat. Having come in at the finale of season 3 and now watching the whole series over again on instant Netflix, I also think if Locke had just told someone at some point "Hey, I used to be in a wheelchair. Now I'm walking around. THAT'S why I'm so bat-**** crazy for this island and figuring it out," he also could have saved himself a lot of grief. But such is scripted drama.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 3:30 am
by Professor Smooth
And so it ends.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 3:39 am
by Professor Smooth
So, let me see if my interpretation makes sense:

Everything that happened on the island actually happened. It wasn't some fantasy or alternate reality or anything like that. The alternate reality was where everybody who was on the island (who mattered) met again in the afterlife.

The assumption is that those on the plane did manage to escape the island and Hurley (called it!) sent Desmond home to Penny.

I was really hoping, up until the last second, that everyone from the "other place" would re-appear on the plane. But, hey, who's to say they didn't?

:)

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:29 am
by Brendocon
Brendocon wrote:It's almost as if Los Angeles is all that exists, some weird construct where the survivors of 815 have been dumped to live in some shared hallucination with the ghosts of the people who died there... happily receiving everything they ever wanted
Damn I'm good.

That was beautiful.

:)

And Ellie gets to be with her son.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:38 am
by Professor Smooth
I was still kind of bummed about Jin and Sun leaving their little girl. But then I remembered that, had they never gone to the island, that little girl would never have been born. In her, the best of both of them lived on.

And, hey, maybe she grew up and met Aaron.

Phenomenal ending. A non-copout ending that's still open to endless interpretation. Bravo.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:46 am
by Brendocon
Everybody's dead = the logical ending point for any story.

Disappointed that we never found out more about Walt's specialness. If Michael's ghost was trapped on the island because he couldn't move on, is that why he wasn't in the sideways? If so, what happened to him? Was Richard not there because he'll never die?

Wonderous.

And bonus points for Christian spelling it out that everything that happened was real. Just to avoid confusion. Of course there'll be people who won't get it because they haven't been paying attention, but [composite word including 'f*ck'] 'em.

I'm not sure which I choked up more over - Sayid and Shannon or Sawyer and Juliet.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 1:59 pm
by Yaya
So LA was pretty much a sort of pergatory, where I think it's inferred that everyone in the church were moving on to a better place. Notice how Ben didn't go in and Michael was nowhere to be seen. I'm thinking theirs was ultimately a different destination. :eyebrow: Which makes me sad.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 2:08 pm
by Brendocon
I think it's more limbo than purgatory... a little collective pre-heaven where they can deal with their baggage and find the people they want to go into the main building with.

Ben... probably wasn't comfortable going in with the others after everything that happened. Or maybe he wanted to wait for Alex to be ready first.

Would Michael have been welcome? Would he have been comfortable? How would you go about "awakening" him to his island life? I think, like the equally killy Ana-Lucia, he wasn't ready yet. If he was there at all.

My main concern is Aaron being born in limbo... what happens to proper Aaron? And Ji-Yeon. And oh look I've gone crosseyed.

And they all died happily ever after. :)

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 2:30 pm
by Yaya
Professor Smooth wrote: The assumption is that those on the plane did manage to escape the island and Hurley (called it!)
Damn. You're good. Thought of you when Jack passed the torch.


I'm still confused by what happened to the people on the plane when it took off. I guess they weren't heading to the limbo L.A., but maybe the real L.A? What confuses me most is Kate, Sawyer, and Claire being on there. Had it been just Lapidus, Miles, and Richard, it might have been more easy to explain.

Certainly open to many an interpretation. Which is okay with me.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 2:35 pm
by Brendocon
Yaya wrote:I'm still confused by what happened to the people on the plane when it took off. I guess they weren't heading to the limbo L.A., but maybe the real L.A?
They went off and lived their lives, then when they eventually died (everybody dies eventually - as Christian says) they met up with the others in their personal limbo that exists outside of time.

Hence Kate saying that she'd missed Jack so much - she had a long life without him.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 3:59 pm
by Yaya
Brendocon wrote:
Yaya wrote:I'm still confused by what happened to the people on the plane when it took off. I guess they weren't heading to the limbo L.A., but maybe the real L.A?
They went off and lived their lives, then when they eventually died (everybody dies eventually - as Christian says) they met up with the others in their personal limbo that exists outside of time.

Hence Kate saying that she'd missed Jack so much - she had a long life without him.
So who's personal limbo was it at the end? Was it just Jack's or everyone's? How is it that Kate became more aware of the reality of the limbo first than Jack if he preceded her in death? Or was it that everyone shared the same limbo and simply had to wait til all the others died?

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 4:02 pm
by Warcry
Brendocon wrote:Was Richard not there because he'll never die?
I think the scene where Myles pointed out Richard's grey hair was meant to imply that he's not immortal anymore.

I was nicely surprised to see that Richard and Frank managed to pull through. I thought that both of them were dead after what happened to them in the last few episodes, and I'm glad to see I was wrong.

I was disappointed that Mr. Eko didn't make an appearance, though. He was one of my favourites. I would have been tempted to try to shoehorn him in as the priest at Jack's church, if nothing else. Unless I'm missing someone, I think he, Tom and Walt were the only major characters who didn't show up at all this season. Well, OK, Nikki and Paulo too, but at least they got a mention...

Did anyone else think it was a really nice gesture that pretty much everyone who showed up in the finale was billed as part of the starring cast (even characters like Eloise, Chang, Penny and Christian who had traditionally been guest stars). I thought that was a very nice way to say just how important the supporting cast as been to making Lost into the sort of success it became.

There were a lot of great scenes in here, but James and Juliet's reunion really hit me hard. The whole finale was beautiful, and I'm not sure I've ever seen a series wrapped up so perfectly.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:03 pm
by Brendocon
Yaya wrote:So who's personal limbo was it at the end? Was it just Jack's or everyone's?
Everyone's.
Or was it that everyone shared the same limbo and simply had to wait til all the others died?
Christian said something about there being no "now" "here". Which I take to mean that it exists outside of time... when they died wasn't important, they all just ended up there at the same point.
Warcry wrote:I think the scene where Myles pointed out Richard's grey hair was meant to imply that he's not immortal anymore.
Aye, I thought that might have been the case. But was that before or after the cork came out of the bottom of the island. Was it Jacob's death or the island being turned off that caused the lapse in mojo? If the latter, then maybe immortality kicked back in afterwards.

But then there's also the simple thought that maybe Richard's idyllic heavenly bargaining scenario for Learning To Let Go involves being as far away from the [composite word including 'f*ck'] he met on that island as possible.

Agreed on the guest star promotions. I think Chang was listed as full cast in season 5, but fairly sure the others never had been. I missed John Terry's name at the beginning though and thought maybe we weren't going to get to see him again, which would have been disappointing.

I think the actor who played Eko (I'm not even going to bother trying his name, I'd only end up copy/pasting from IMDB) had a falling out with the producers. Though the friend I watched the finale with said he was the only thing really missing. Can't help but agree.

We cheered bigtime when the outrigger bumped into Frank. Also laughed like children at the "you were a great number two" / "you were a great number one" exchange. Maturity FTW.

I wonder what happened to people like Keamy who died in the limboverse. Go back and start again until you get it right?

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:01 pm
by Yaya
Brendocon wrote:
Or was it that everyone shared the same limbo and simply had to wait til all the others died?
Christian said something about there being no "now" "here". Which I take to mean that it exists outside of time... when they died wasn't important, they all just ended up there at the same point.
Ah. You're right.
We cheered bigtime when the outrigger bumped into Frank.


LOL, so did I! Did a little fist pump in fact. I loved that guy. He was the only one of the crew that had a "I'm asking no questions, just tell me what I need to do to get the hell out of here" attitude.


As I reflect on this show and Jack's end, I can't help but be reminded of my favorite movie of all time, Watership Down. I got a very real "Hazel 'moves on' to join the Black Rabbit" sort of vibe at the end with Jack which really struck a deep emotional chord in me, I have to say. Maybe the writers were inspired by the book, as Sawyer actually reads it in the show.

The lessons in Watership Down are manifold, but one of the overarching themes of the story is "what is is what must be", that despite our yearning to have life fit our idea of how we think it should be it can never be so. I think Jack suffered from this from the beginning, that he wanted to be in control, but only in the end realized you have to let go sometimes and just have faith.

Hence, Locke's question: "Why do you find it so hard to believe?" to which Jack answers: "Why do you find it so easy?"

I also got a "Lord of the Rings" kind of vibe akin to when Frodo leaves on that ship with Gandalf in Return of the King, symbolizing his death and passage to the next life. When Jack says goodbye to Kate and Hurley, I was reminded of when Frodo says goodbye to Sam and the others. Very powerful.

Speaking of powerful, I'll admit the following scenes got me teary eyed:
-the whole Kate delivering Aaron with Charlie scene
-Jack saying goodbye to Kate
-Jack being comforted by his father
I don't tear easy, but these got me and I can't remember the last time that happened, TV or cinema.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:00 am
by Metal Vendetta
Yaya wrote:How is it that Kate became more aware of the reality of the limbo first than Jack if he preceded her in death?
Well it was when something in the limbo state awoke strong emotions of their previous life that they became aware of where they were. For Jack, it was touching his father's empty coffin and for Kate it was staring at Clare's vagina.

I reckon with a bit of no-prizing and fanwankery I could generate a "Faraday created the alt-universe for them all to meet up in" theory that would leave me halfway satisfied - it was a decent enough ending though I was a bit disappointed that the island stuff essentially boiled down to "take the cork out and put the cork back in". Like no-one had tried turning the island off and on again before...

Oh, and most of the alt-timeline stuff was directly ripped from the end of O Lucky Man, with some Christian allegory thrown in for good measure.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:05 am
by Professor Smooth
Any fans of Evangelion around here? Go back and watch the last two episodes of the TV show (not the movie). If you watch those episodes with the ending of LOST in mind (taking places after the series and movies have concluded), they make a LOT more sense.

I could almost picture Gendo and Shinji changing places with Christian and Jack.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:34 am
by Metal Vendetta
Professor Smooth wrote:Any fans of Evangelion around here?
Evangelion Lily, maybe.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:50 pm
by Brendocon
Metal Vendetta wrote:Like no-one had tried turning the island off and on again before...
Well there were skeletons down there, so maybe they had.

Plus the last person we know to go down there who wasn't Supercharged Scottish Electromagnet Man ended up as a big floaty cloud of pissed off black stuff.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:49 pm
by Yaya
Brendocon wrote:
Metal Vendetta wrote:Like no-one had tried turning the island off and on again before...
Well there were skeletons down there, so maybe they had.

Plus the last person we know to go down there who wasn't Supercharged Scottish Electromagnet Man ended up as a big floaty cloud of pissed off black stuff.
The question I have is why did Jacob's bro become a black wisp of smoke and Jack nor Desmond did?