Religous Wars!

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Religous Wars!

Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:58 am

Shias killing Sunnis
Jews killing Muslims
Christians killing who ever

apart from WW2 there is curently more death being dealed on behalf of religon then ever before - way to go!

If god is so infalible then perhaps he should get the message across better.

dont kill.

Seriously, I cannot belive whats going on in the world you have Muslims in Iraq killing each other because they are from slightly different tribes? WTF? Religon is good?
And Isral and Leb are completely potty - one side wants the other to leave because its holy land and blah blah blah.... ffs religon is good I ask?

Religon is killing more ppl then ever before, for every person that dies in the name of some god - explain to me how its good because you cannot argue that they are not 'true followers' of a faith they belive they are and millions of others do too the problem stems from the holy books they read, that God doesnt have the correct message because essentially there is no God and all of this death and destruction is a result of religous BS.
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:15 am

No no no.

You're looking at this all wrong. We should encourage more religious wars, that way there will be less religious people in the world. In fact, we should make it compulsory for religious people to be actively engaged in conflict to increase the chances of their getting blown into smithereens. I'm going to try and start a fight between some Jehovah's witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists and see if we can't get rid of all of them too.
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Post by Brendocon » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:35 am

Metal Vendetta wrote:No no no.

You're looking at this all wrong. We should encourage more religious wars, that way there will be less religious people in the world.


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Post by Scraplet » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:37 am

Metal Vendetta wrote: We should encourage more religious wars, that way there will be less religious people in the world.


Unfortunatly, as in Lebenon, lots of innocent 'couldn't-give-monkeys-about-either-of-your-damn-gods' people die.

And lots of quietly religous people, who are forced to pick as side and fight when they are attacked as a nation becauise of the acts of a few nutters.

I'm sure lots of religous Lebanese and (conscripted) Israelies would rather not be fighting at all now.

Sometimes its hard to seperate the politics from the religon.....blaming religon alone is too easy.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:01 pm

Without religon none of these fights would be on this scale tho.
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Post by Obfleur » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:07 pm

Without guns none of these fights would be on this scale.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:11 pm

U need a reason to pull a trigger - Religon is the reason.

Im sorry but I was a follower of any faith right now id feel embaressed with whats going on the world, its disgusting.
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:45 pm

Scraplet wrote:And lots of quietly religous people, who are forced to pick as side and fight when they are attacked as a nation becauise of the acts of a few nutters.

I'm sure lots of religous Lebanese and (conscripted) Israelies would rather not be fighting at all now.

Then they should refuse to fight. If they really believe that their religion is about peace then they should become conscientious objectors. Interestingly, Nelson Mandela is "not particularly religious" and Ghandi, whie spiritual, didn't subscribe to any particular creed, declaring he was a Hindu and a Muslim and a Christian...and so on. Religion seems to breed intolerance, those who rise above its petty trappings are usuallly those who can get some genuinely good works done.
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Post by Kaylee » Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:31 pm

Shame about Mandella's back-catalogue of good works really... his only achievement was essentially being not too corrupt and being reasonably honest, which granted in a country historically run by villains (foreign and home grown) was a big step. Doesn't excuse his rather length list of sins which never get mentioned though, specifically his endorsement of a national health program which claimed there were no links between HIV and AIDS and that AIDS was cureable by all sorts of... unusual means (eating lemons, sleeping with virgins etc.)

I'm generally of the opinion without religion the world would run something like this:

For a moment, all conflict would stop. The Jews and Muslims fighting in Lebanoon would stop, look at each other, then one would sheepishly say to the other-

"So, yar... sorry about about all that."

"Er, yes... me too..." Would come the awkward reply.

A few more moments of silence would ensue before something cries out:

"YOU STOLE MY SHOVEL!!!"

At which point, all fighting would resume as normal.

There are root causes of all these things, including people's adherance to extreme religions and endorsement of violence imo. We need to solve that, otherwise the problem will merely shift to some other outlet.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:26 pm

You can get ppl to talk about shovels - its fact based.

Religious wars like we are seeing are based upon faith, and neither side can back up his or hers argument with anything other then faith - this is why the violence is so extream.

You dont get sucide bombers killing in the name of shovels or anything else for that matter, the only other form of terroist action is for James Bond esque villans who want loads of money and these are few and so far between it doesnt matter but you do not get countries going to war over it.

Without religion you wouldnt have the huge violence seen in the middle east right now you can bring ppl to tables to talk about things and you dont have to worry about upsetting someones god and starting a war over it.

Countries not run by religion (most 1st world) dont fight with each other any more.

Religion isnt needed in the 21st centuary anymore, its an old science that causes violence, hatred, phobias and racism. The messages of old do not work in the modern world and the clash of cultures old and new is whats tearing this world apart.
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Post by Kaylee » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:03 pm

That's just it, I'm not convinced religion 'causes' these things as such, I believe it is a symptom rather than an illness. People will still hate each other and will simply find a new justification, probably equally erroneous. In the end if someone firmly believes they're better than someone else for whatever reason (which seems to be the bottom line on religious hatred) they can I'm sure come up with any number of equally foolish reasons. Banishing religion to solve the world's problems imo would be like treating lung cancer with fresh air, on the basis that the sufferer can't breath properly.

If you want to remove hatred and intolerance from the world I think it needs to start with removing barriers of wealth, power, affluence, potential and society. When people are able to all share the same standard and to see that their neighbours are just as human as they are, be they American, Israeli, Muslim, homosexual, Hindu or Satanist they may find that their need to hurt these individuals diminishes.

I appreciate wishing for such a thing is about as useful as wishing to wave a magic wand and wipe religion away, but it's a good thing to aspire to imo and I think would solve a lot more problems.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:31 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:That's just it, I'm not convinced religion 'causes' these things as such, I believe it is a symptom rather than an illness. People will still hate each other and will simply find a new justification, probably equally erroneous. In the end if someone firmly believes they're better than someone else for whatever reason (which seems to be the bottom line on religious hatred) they can I'm sure come up with any number of equally foolish reasons.

I agree that you will always have violence, lets take animal rights activists (the naughty kind) you might get 50 hard-liners but you will never be able to convince millions that thier cause is worth dying for because you have facts and science to reason with, evidence can be used to make 'rationa' decsions.

If you want to remove hatred and intolerance from the world I think it needs to start with removing barriers of wealth, power, affluence, potential and society. When people are able to all share the same standard and to see that their neighbours are just as human as they are, be they American, Israeli, Muslim, homosexual, Hindu or Satanist they may find that their need to hurt these individuals diminishes.


You can never share the same standard untill you join 'thier' religion tho, thats problem. Can u ever imagine an American going to war with the UK,Germany or Austrailer perhaps? the only things they have to argue about can be argued fairly, diplomatically - Theres no way to argue about god tho. Its based on nothing substantial.

I appreciate wishing for such a thing is about as useful as wishing to wave a magic wand and wipe religion away, but it's a good thing to aspire to imo and I think would solve a lot more problems.


Your right, Unfortuantly religion isnt going to die over night, and so other methods must be found to try and live with fruit-cakes. It pains me that I have to live my life in a way that I feel im am bending all the time - there is no give and take because for a religous person there is only one way to live. Belive or dont belive.
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Post by Optimus Prime Rib » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:34 pm

Impy, you want everyone in the world to think like you. Quite simply, its not going to happen. Its starting to get old with almost every other week you start in on a "I feel like bashing religious people" rant. I am religious, and I like to count you as a friend.But frankly youre starting to alienate those who care. Lately, you just seem full of anger and rage. Yes the fighting is stupid. Yes you can attribute ALOT if not MOST to religious argument. But quite simply its human nature to want what someone else has. Passing it off as a religious fight is a means to an end at the high end of the totem pole.

Im sure this will get flamed. But I think I kept my mouth shut on this long enough.
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Post by Kaylee » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:36 pm

All true (to mark). I wonder if the reason why the more developed countries haven't fought (...recently...) is to do with a level of homogenaity in our lifestyles and society? We all have generally the same level of freedom (okay, gay marriage may be legal here but not there but in very few developed countries are homosexuals still hated by the population at large) and generally the same level of wealth (we all have mobile phones, big-ass TVs and at least a couple of hundred TV stations with one or two holidays a year). Maybe it's because of those similarities and no huge feeling of "Why do they have everything and we have nothing?" that keeps us on reasonably good terms with one another?
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:26 pm

Optimus Prime Rib:

Firstly I dont want anyone to think like me im talking about religion.
Secondly I will bash religion untill it either gos away or someone can talk some sense about it because its ******* the entire planet up and its a huge subject that does make me angry.
And if me not being religious alienates me from you then thats your problem, and guess what its down to again?..religion. Typical.

Karl:

I think the reason the 1st world countries havent fought recently is because we dont have anything to fight about, everything else can be talked about rationaly.
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Post by Shanti418 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:59 pm

I have to agree completly with Karl, in reference to the statement that ridding the world of religion won't truly solve violence, as it's my opinion that humanity has a degree of selfishness and xenophobia that doesn't take care of itself, and that we most often cure and/or suppress in modern society by religion or ethics or simple utiliertianism.

And Impy, I have to agree with OPR a bit on this one: You HAVE been a bit of a one trick pony lately. I'm not religious whatsoever, and at this point in our lives and the timeline of humanity, the death, intolerance, and hatred caused by religion is stark, no doubt.
But in a sense, by lumping and generalizing people by "if" they believe, you're acting no better than the religious fanatics, who lump and generalize by "what" they believe.
There are plenty of people who live better, fuller, more peaceful, more empathetic, more understanding, more purposeful, happier lives because of beliving in God, or belonging to a church. And that's great in my book.

It's like global warming. No one likes it. But I can't just go around and say, "You stupid fools! Don't you realize what you're doing is ridiculous? Stop!" to anyone in a car, or the logging company in the rainforest, or the factory with the smokestacks, because there are other things at play that I shouldn't discount. The distance that person has to drive in his/her car, how much they could afford greener transportation. The jobs created by the factories and loggers, etc.

You not being religious is not what's alienating to OPR. What's alienating is your depiction of everyone who believes in religion as stupider than you and inherantly flawed.

And yes, part of why we don't fight as much 'round these Western parts is due to the homogenity of our cultures. But it's also due to the economic interdependancy globalization has created. If Germany bombs the US, who would buy all those cars?
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:37 pm

My problem lies with religion & the society influences, not the ppl. They are simply misguided.

Your Global warming anloagy is interesting but seems slightly flawed, GW is caused by many factors but religous wars are caused only by one; belife.

Taking away religion isnt going to end violence, of course not, ppl dissagree all the time and that can lead to confrontation but religion is a motivator like no other, and currently it can motivate entire races of ppl to war, its hard to see anything else on earth that can stir up the same violence.

Ppl who support religons do so in different ammounts, from taking the odd parable out to support part of thier life or are completely involved that thier entire life is run by it. Stupidty is an interesting word to use in this instance. its defined by 'not thinking' and perhaps it is the correct word to use..

if my one trick recntly is my despise for all things religious its because everywhere I look I see trouble relating to it, its a product of the times we live in. I feel the need to speak about it in the vain hope someone can give me some honest answers on the matter.

I agree with what you said to Karl about Humanity having a degree of selfishness and Xenophobia I belive this is because at our basic level we are animals and we still have primal instincts to fight with but as time moves on these things are delt with - Homosexuality like Karl pointed is still frowned upon in some countries but in the UK the feelings have changed considerably in the last 15 years alone? - society is changing but religion does not and western society clashes with middle a eastern society that isnt changing due to religion.
As our own society begins to change religion remains static and left in the past, like for example Homosexuality being 'wrong', surely only when we finnaly give up these ties to the religious influences can society truly evolve. Homosexuality remmeber was fine under the Romans it was the bible that made it wrong...

Like I say, I dont have a problem with ppl its religion in society - and when we have two countries currently killing thier own societys over different belifes I felt the need for this thread. sure i think religion is **** and stupid but I hope the above gives you an insight into why im so vocal about it. My feelings are alot more then one trick pony plans...
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Post by Jetfire » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:23 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:U need a reason to pull a trigger - Religon is the reason.

Im sorry but I was a follower of any faith right now id feel embaressed with whats going on the world, its disgusting.


Wasn't world war 2 mostly based on German politicians wishing to turn Germany into a world empire? The other nasty aspects tended to be racial hatred. It's never been claimed it was a mostly religious thing nor is there any evidence as such. Economic and power hungry was the main causes. Heck the Nazi cause was always argued on fairly scientific arguements even if they were ignorant ones.

What about Japan's involvement the bombing of Pearl harbour or the use of atomic bombs hardly needed a religious cause.

I've never heard of the Vietnam war having religious causes, nor the Korean war.

Starlin is responsible for more murder and death than anyother person who has lived. He certainly had no religious conviction.

Mao Tse-tung is above even Nazi's for death numbers and China is hardly religious at all.

Pol Pot? Lenin? Hussain? The several cases of Genoside in Africa? None of these people\events who killed in the millions did so for any religious reasons. In fact many of these eamples had strongly Secular beliefs.

What about pre 20th century disasters? Pizaro 500 years ago massicared huge numbers of Inca's just because he believed they had more Gold for him to Steal.

What about Ceaser, Ginges Kahn, Alex the Great. All able to conqure and kill big porportions of the world without religious involvement.

You make statements about how the USa would never go to war with European countries and implie religious convictions but what about the US abuse of South and Central America in the 80's? That's an area of the world more Christian and the USA.

What about Iraq the Middle eastern country with one of the biggest Christian populars in the region? The most popular reason is Oil as I recall. They generally built oil pipes not Churches in the last few years.

Or that Britain went to war with another Christian country int he 80's?
Seriously, I cannot belive whats going on in the world you have Muslims in Iraq killing each other because they are from slightly different tribes? WTF? Religon is good?


How is that religious. Tribal beef in the middle east predates virtually all religions. How is that a good example of a anti-religious arguement?

Predjuice, ignorance and power lust are more often the common theme for wars starting or huge numbers of dead people. Several of the worst human directed events in the last century had no religious overtones in their causes or idealism. Polictics is the cause more often or not.
Pro-war/anti enemy propaganda has many targets Nationalism is probably maniliputed in the causes of war than Religion.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:30 pm

Hene why im talking about present day... the difference in modern 1st world society and 3rd world religous based societys.
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Post by Bouncelot » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:55 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Taking away religion isnt going to end violence, of course not, ppl dissagree all the time and that can lead to confrontation but religion is a motivator like no other, and currently it can motivate entire races of ppl to war, its hard to see anything else on earth that can stir up the same violence.


Hm, not sure I agree there. There are plenty of wars going on in different parts of Africa - some of which have been going for decades - which are either tribal conflicts or conflicts about land. Somalia is almost entirely Muslim, yet it's been a warzone since the early 1990s. Look at Western interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq, they're mostly about oil and power politics. As for inter-group warfare in Iraq, yes, a few fanatical Muslim groups are helping to fuel it, but the conflict does seem to be as much tribal as anything. Israel vs Hezbullah is the only current example I can think of where there's a clear-cut religious motivation involved - Hezbullah believes that Israel shouldn't exist, partly on the basis of (their version of ) Islam, but also partly because of the history of the region. Israel, on the other hand, is simply trying to stop them from firing missiles at Israeli civilians (and overreacting in the process).

Ppl who support religons do so in different ammounts, from taking the odd parable out to support part of thier life or are completely involved that thier entire life is run by it. Stupidty is an interesting word to use in this instance. its defined by 'not thinking' and perhaps it is the correct word to use..


This is the sort of comment that gets peoples' backs up and gets in the way of any valid points you might make. Do try to at least be tactful in the way you put things. Saying that religion equals stupidity and not thinking is insulting well over 80% of the population of this planet. What have they ever done to you to deserve being called stupid? Of course there are some stupid religious people, just as there are some stupid atheists and agnostics. That doesn't mean that we're all stupid, or that we don't think.

if my one trick recntly is my despise for all things religious its because everywhere I look I see trouble relating to it, its a product of the times we live in. I feel the need to speak about it in the vain hope someone can give me some honest answers on the matter.


It's interesting that you keep on banging on about the small minority who use religion as a tool for evil but ignore the massive number who are motivated to do good things by their religion. Can you point to a single atheist who has done something like Mother Theresa and given up all they had to go and help those worse off than themselves? I know of many examples of Christians who have done just that, but no examples of non-religious people who have. I'd love to know if there are any,

As our own society begins to change religion remains static and left in the past, like for example Homosexuality being 'wrong', surely only when we finnaly give up these ties to the religious influences can society truly evolve. Homosexuality remmeber was fine under the Romans it was the bible that made it wrong...


The Greco-Roman concept of homosexuality was rather different to the modern one. It's interesting that society does actually seem to cyclically change its views on such subjects. I recently read that in the 18th century homosexuality (well, the practice anyway - the concept of sexual orientation is essentially a 20th century take) was considered acceptable. Then society moved on and evolved from that point of view.

Of course, if society evolving requires religion to die off, then the world's heading in the wrong direction. The proportion of the world's population who count as "non-religious" peaked in about 1989 and has been in decline ever since.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:16 pm

It was your word 'stupid' that I was refering too.

As for a single athiest doing somthing Mother teresa - i dont see the point, millions of ppl like doctors for example save lives everyday without religion, its impposible to tell. - Not everyone is mother teresa for everything good she does in religions name x10 has died in its name so its a moot point and not what im talking about.
What about police officer, ppl in the army, fireman, christ the list would go on forever, its a totaly impposible comparison to account for.

Society as a whole is at ends with each other right now, west meets the world etc...

As for whos religous and whos not - I didnt know that numbers mean that ppl are correct in thier views? Germany was pretty sure it new what it was doing WW2.
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Post by Kaylee » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:18 pm

Atheist Philanthropists :3

A good example would be Warren Buffet, who just donated 80% of his $40,000,000 fortune to the Gates Foundation to help with HIV in Africa.

I appreciate he didn't give away everything and live in a mud-hut,but it's the most recent high-profile case I could think of and also first back on the URL above :) Have a dig and see what can be found.

Finding an atheist Mother Therasa is probably unlikely, but given atheists have less than 20% of the 'vote' (so to speak) they're not doing too badly on the philanthropy scales I think it must be said.

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Post by sprunkner » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:46 pm

As someone said about Africa, it ain't religion, it's tribalism. It's always been tribalism. Why do you think that most of Europe speaks Indo-European while the Finno-Uralic languages only survived in the cold, mountainous places? Cause ten thousand years (or so) ago, a tribe wanted to expand their way of life and met up with others who were different. Yes, the Indo-European expansion included their gods, but it also had to do with their language, their ideas of what honor and truth and beauty meant, and their ideas of how people should act. Not all of that stems from religion, nor should it. Puritanism was a way of life and a culture as well as a religion, and most American ideals stem from the culture, not the religion. (Puritanism was in direct violation of most of the New Testament anyway. Jesus was certainly never a wealthy landowner.)

The problem the world has right now is dealing with the notion of a one-world tribe. We have been dealing with this problem ever since we came up with a weapon that could, literally, destroy the world. We can't keep clinging to these tribal ideas, which, as Jetfire pointed out, are not always based in religion. But nobody wants to tell a beautiful and unique culture that they need to assimilate completely. People want to preserve their tribal identity while acknowledging the validity of other tribes. Some tribal identities (like Arab Islam) feel threatened by cultures that promote a very different way of life and expect them to assimilate.

With OPR, I think this is stupid. Religion is far too complex to simply paint black or white. If you believe that the Crusaders, Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, the Zionists and Nazis are evil JUST because they're religious, then you say by implication that they're no different from Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jr, George Harrison, Mother Theresa, the Red Cross/Crescent/Diadem, Pope John Paul II, and the religious people on this very board. That's ********.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:51 pm

Ist religion about being part of a tribe tho?
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Post by Guest » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:27 pm

It's all politics and prejudices.

Dress it up with all the fancy terms you want, but the truth is still the same. If something is different to us, we take an immediate dislike to it and want rid of it as soon as possible.

Despite all of our apparent achievements, we are still nothing more than animals.

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Post by Jetfire » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:29 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Ist religion about being part of a tribe tho?


No. tribes are just an group and even if it religion was/is tribal the middle eastern conflicts predate all of the worlds major reiligions and it is vastly ignorant to say otherwise or say any current world religion was responsible execpt the worship of money or fossil fuels.

Unfortuantly Impy you seem determined to scale every conflict onto a religious scale. The first Iraq war was fought on the basis of invasion and seemingly had no religious motivation but could have had an oil motivation.

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Hene why im talking about present day... the difference in modern 1st world society and 3rd world religous based societys.


That's hardly accurate. Italy and most of the med are as religious as many 3rd world countries but have been among the most peaceful in the world. South America is the most highly Christian region in the world and have nver thought a religious war since the inception of the countries we know now. As far as I can tell they have almost never been involved with conflict with any other country.

Barley 1 years ago genocide occured in Rwunda with some 3 million wiped out or forced to flee the country. No religious motivation. Nobody doing it in the name of God. Just evil people doing what evil people do for their own ends.

That's easily the worst post war event that has occured IMO. Worse than Iraq, Israel Misolivck etc, but also far less publicised than Iraq, Israel becuse the media know religion sells.

Look up the worst acts in history and you'll find many of the worst acts have no religious connection to them. Look up most Middle eastern wars and conflicts. All the events occured due to events long before the religions involved were born.

And those who use others faith as a cause to fight for today and manilipution them do so because most of the rigion is illiterate and purposely have the truth kept against them for political control. Islamic jihad as we have come to know it has nothing to do with the Qu'ran. Again ignorance is the cause, much like the US soliders in Iraq are often from areas of poor education and have their nationistic values maniliputed so Bush's buddies get oil.



I'm afraid some of your anti-religious statement are as sweepingly predjuiced. As Bouncelot and Karl have poited out the vast mojority 99.99% pf religious and non-believers have never done something wrong much like the 0.001% of susposed religious and non-religious people have performed some aweful acts.
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Jetfire
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Post by Jetfire » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:31 pm

Rebis wrote:It's all politics and prejudices.



My whole point in a nutshell. Politics (Power, land gain) and predjuices (racial, national or cultural) are the cause.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:41 pm

But when somthing that is essentially just a way to lead your life can kill alot of ppl do we still need it in the modern world?
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Post by Guest » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:48 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:But when somthing that is essentially just a way to lead your life can kill alot of ppl do we still need it in the modern world?


Trying not to sound like a Gaia/Nemesis theorist, but wouldn't this be a necessary safeguard to prevent the rampant population growth of an otherwise unchallenged species from reaching an unsustainable level?

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:51 pm

im not sure Gaia would be tom pleased if it led to nukes being used... ?
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