Yaya wrote:Not sure what version of Islam you are referring to, but you will not find anywhere in the Koran or the Hadith the forcing of one to become Muslim with death as the alternative.
Dead Head wrote:More of your LIES. The Muslim Holy texts contain many edicts exhorting Muslims to subdue and slay non-Muslims/'unbelievers' who reject Islam.
You are referring to the verse 9:5, a favorite of the anti-Islamist who take this verse out of the context by showing it alone, and disregarding the circumstances under which it was revealed. Allow me to educate you on this. This verse is specifically referring to the idolators who had broken their pact of peace with the Prophet (PBUH) and spent many years persecuting and torturing the newly converted Muslims. You give the one verse alone, but fail to give the verses before and after the one you mention. Let me give the verse before and those that follow:
9:4: "Excepting those of the idolaters with who you Muslims have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. As for these, fulfill your treaty to them til their term. Lo! Allah loves those who keep their duty to Him.
9:6: "And if anyone of the idolaters seek your protection, then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
9:7..."So long as the Idolaters are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loves those who keep their duty.
9:8: "How can there be any treaty for the others when , if they have the upperhand on you, they do not regard your pact nor honor in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths, while their hearts refuse.
9:12: "And if they break their pledges after their treaty has been made with you and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief..
9:13: "Will you not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Do you fear them! Now Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers."
Under what circumstances does the Quran say to fight?
Quran: "Permission to fight is given to those who are fought against, because they have been wronged;and Allah indeed is able to give them victory" (Surah 22, verse 39)
Qur'an: "Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease from the persecution of believers, that which is past will be forgiven them;but if they return to persecuting, then the example of the men of old (who lost in battle to the believers) has already gone before them as a warning.
And fight them until persecution is no more." (Surah 8, verses 38-39)
Yaya wrote:This is a fallacy that even my own high school text taught about Islam, that it was "spread by the sword".
Dead Head wrote: OF COURSE Islam WAS and IS spread by the sword. Islam's very origins are rooted in aggressive violence and bloody war. "
Even though man, by nature, tends to fight any aggression inflicted upon him, God permits the repelling of aggression by parallel, proportionate means only.
Qur’an: "Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and be careful (of your duty) to Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)] (Al-Baqarah 2:194)
Quran: "And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits (Al-Baqarah 2:190).
God also makes it clear that religious differences do not justify aggression against anyone, even though they may reach the stage of open conflict:
Quran: "Let not hatred of a people—because they hindered you from the Sacred Mosque—incite you to exceed the limits (Al-Ma’idah 5:2). (Context: Revealed when the pagan Arabs stopped the Muslims from worshipping at the Sacred Mosque in Mecca)
Hadith: At-Tabari quotes the following hadith: “The Prophet came to Makkah to perform the lesser Pilgrimage. Some of his companions arrested some local people, taking them as prisoners while they were unaware. The Prophet ordered their release.” We see that the Prophet did this, releasing unbelievers who were taken prisoner, because he did not consider himself in a state of war with the unbelievers, as his purpose was to offer the lesser pilgrimage.
Initiating aggression is not a part of Muslim ethics. Muslims may repel evil with a similar measure, but their purpose in doing so is not to retaliate; rather, it is to bring evil actions committed against them to an end.
The Qur’an demonstrates that the best method to ensure the prevention of evil is to call upon people to pursue forbearance and forgiveness—as the best way to fight animosity:
Quran: "And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend] (Fussilat 41:34).
Quran: "Repel evil with that which is best (Al-Mu’minun 23:96).
Muslims are described in the Qur’an as those who "repel evil with what is good" (Ar-Ra`d 13:22 and Al-Qasas 28:54).
Indeed, even a prisoner of war must eventually be released, as the Qur’an states "either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates" (Muhammad 47:4).
Even in the case of war, it is not permissible to kidnap innocent people or civilians, who must not be a war target, to begin with. From an Islamic point of view, civilians are all those who are non-combatants, such as women and children, as well as the elderly who have no role in the fighting, and men of any religion:
Hadith: "Do not to kill women and children." ( Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)
Hadith: “Do not kill any young person" (Related by Abu Dawood. )
In an order to Khalid ibn Al-Waleed, the army commander, the Prophet (PBUH) said:
Hadith: “Never kill a child or a labor worker.” (Related by Ibn Majah) This last order includes anyone employed in non-combat capacity, such as factory workers, medical personnel, and the like.
The Prophet (PBUH) also made clear the prohibition of killing any elderly man, priests, or hermits dedicated to worship. (Hadith, Related by Abu Dawood)
It is an important Islamic duty to treat prisoners of war kindly and gently, be hospitable to them, and provide them with food and clothing. They must never be subjected to ill-treatment or torture:
Qur’an: "And they [i.e., the believers] give food out of love for Him to the poor and the orphan and the captive" (Al-Insan 76:8)
Hadith: "“Be sure to treat the captives kindly.” (Related by al-Tabarani)
After the Battle of Badr, the Prophet (PBUH) ordered that those unbelievers who were taken captive should be treated kindly. Complying with his order, the Companions of the Prophet gave the captives their food before they themselves ate.
That prisoners of war must be released is clearly stated in the Qur’an:
Quran: "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates" (Muhammad 47:4)
How about upholding treaties?
A number of statements by the Prophet (PBUH) make clear that non-Muslims who have a treaty with Muslims must never be killed, such as Hadith: “Whoever kills a man bound with a treaty, without valid cause, shall never be allowed even the smell of Heaven.” (Related by al-Nassaie.)
Yaya wrote:On the contrary, the Koran states "There is no compulsion in religion".
Dead Head wrote:*BULLSH1T ALERT*
No really. Here it is:
Quran :"There is no compulsion in Islam" (Surah 2, verse 256)
Dead Head wrote: You conveniently fail to mention, as apologists are known to do, is that that early Koran verse is made invalid and is overridden by the later verses that call for "Struggle against the unbelievers and hypocrites and be harsh with them", amongst other deadly, aggressive, and violent intents towards unbelievers.
How about a later verse then?
Quran: "Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve." (Surah 18, Verse 29)
Dead Head wrote: Not only that, but the Muhammad 'handily' changed his tune later on when Islam was getting much more militarily powerful and he started spouting increasingly intolerant guff like: "Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme!"
Oh, you mean he assumed the mantle of military leader and fought to reclaim his home after he had been forced out of it? If that's changing his tune, so be it. He changed it for a very valid and just reason.
By the way, repeating the same verse over and over again doesn't make your argument to me any stronger, especially when you've already taken it out of context and applied it to every non-Muslim.
Yaya wrote:During the times of the Prophet (PBUH) Christians and Jews were allowed to practice their religion, provided they paid a protection tax to the Muslim army for their defense against outside enemies.
Dead Head wrote: Wow. You really are in full-on truth-twisting deluded apologist mode! The choice for conquered non-believers under the boot of Islam was (and IS, because the Quran is still utterly valid and true for all time) either to A) convert to Islam and enjoy 'tolerance' and 'equality' that it brings, or B) don't convert but exist as a severely restricted second-class unbeliever paying the 'non-Muslim tax' to the benefit of the Muslims, with very little if any rights compared to a Muslim, or C) be murdered for rejecting Islam and second-class dirt status.
The wisdom behind the tax/jizyah paid by non-Muslims to the Islamic state was fairness. This is for two reasons:
First, Muslims were paying zakah (the annual charity) to the Islamic state, which was used for all sorts of services and social welfare. Zakah is an Islamic act of worship, but it is only for Muslims. It was fair to make non-Muslim citizens of the same state pay a similar (in fact, smaller) amount as a tax, since zakah is not taken from them as it is taken from Muslims. Jizyah was calculated in different ways throughout different eras (a certain amount of money, certain percentage of the crops, etc), but it was consistently less than the zakah, which every Muslim had to pay anyway.
In addition to that, this tax was paid in exchange of protection of these non-Muslim communities (i.e., military protection) and exemption of their men from joining the Islamic army. At that time, this was a necessary and fair measure given all the wars that the Islamic state was going through based on religious divides. It was not fair to ask these non-Muslim citizens to fight with Muslims against fellow believers of their same religion.
Those are the facts about jizyah.
Yaya wrote:How can one be forced to believe against what their heart inclines to? It can't be done.
Dead Head wrote: That's where Islam's sword comes in.
No reference needing citing here, you're just a fool if you think that you can so easily change the heart of someone through force. I already cited the verses above from the Quran giving the right to believe or not.
Yaya wrote:I choose to be a Muslim in a land where I am called "terrorist", "Nazi", etc. daily.
Dead Head wrote: That doesn't sound nice at all. On the other hand, you freely subscribe to a religion, Islam, which is most definitely immoderate, intolerant and violent. You, as an individual, may be a happy-with-homosexuals- happy-with-apostates-happy-with-unbelieving-men -marrying-muslim-women -happy-amongst-many-other-things total pacifist, but that doesn't change the many ugly tenets that are a vital and living part of Islam.
You don't like the tenets of Islam, hey, that's your right. But I don't appreciate the way you ascribe fallacies to my belief, and in doing so, cite no clear reference for it except the actions of select uneducated Muslims today.
Dead Head wrote: All the "be kind to your elders", "fast", and "give to charity"-type good stuff can't make up for the multitude of eternal hate and injustice spewing from the Quran and Ahadith.
Again, I have lived as a Muslim for a long time, and I don't find myself hating anyone, really. You would like me to adopt the preposterous idea that my faith, which I have practiced and studied, is leading me to hate and kill. I know better.
I'm a physician. 99.9% of my time is spent ensuring that non-Muslims see the best they possibly can. And I do it proudly. So stop with this "hate" ********. You are the only one here coming across as a hateful person.
Yaya wrote:If my wife wears the head scarf, insults are tossed her way everyday.
Dead Head wrote: Not nice, and I don't think she should be provoked like that (obviously the Islamic covering makes her easily identifiable as a Muslim). On another point, she is a bigger fool than you (a man) for remaining to be a Muslim, though.
Calling my wife a fool and then labeling others as hateful? Have you met my wife? If there's one thing I can't stand more than a prejudging hatemonger, its a prejudging hypocrite.
My wife chooses to wear the scarf. Nobody forces her to do it. She is constantly tossed insults, but who the **** cares? I consider her courageous and respect her determination.
Yaya wrote:Still, I choose to be Muslim, and openly so.
Dead Head wrote: You choose to remain blind, and a craven apologist if you don't refute the wicked calls to the faithful within your holy books
I have nothing to apologize for. If anyone owes an apology here, its you. No, no. Don't worry. I don't expect you to. I don't expect much from you at all.