If he's here, who's running hell?

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If he's here, who's running hell?

Post by Best First » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:35 pm

Ok, enough of this god lark, out of curiosity - does anyone believe in the devil, or some other malign force?
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Post by Brendocon » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:42 pm

I believe in the Devil. He exists in the hearts and minds of all of us, oh yes. The capacity for eeeeeeeeeeeevil is in us all.

Mwa. Ha. Ha.

Ahem.
Grrr. Argh.

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Post by Obfleur » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:43 pm

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No. I do not believe in Satan, the devil, Lord Beelzebub, Lucifer, the demon in The Exorcist, etc.
Can't believe I'm still here.

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Post by BB Shockwave » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:01 pm

Well, since there's enough proof (for me at least) about supernatural forces at work in the world, there is logically a chance that some of them are not good intentioned...

Though even as a devout catholic, it never ceases to amase me why the devil would be bothering to corrupt us. We're doing a good enough job ourselves... :D
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Post by Brendocon » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:03 pm

BB Shockwave wrote:Though even as a devout catholic, it never ceases to amase me why the devil would be bothering to corrupt us. We're doing a good enough job ourselves... :D


That's where He's a genius, though. We don't even realise he's doing it!

Everything good that happens is God's work. Everything bad that happens is The Devil's. That way we have no control of or responsibility for our own actions and have nothing to worry about... :oops:
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Post by Stormwolf » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:23 pm

Nope, don't believe in the devil.

The entire hell and Satan thing was just a way for the church to keep the general population obedient during the dark ages.
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Post by Legion » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:26 pm

I don't know, in the same way i'm not sure about a god. logically if one exists than the other should as well, but that's a whole new kettle of fish...

but i'm a superstitious bugger, so i'd err on the side of caution if the need arose.


Stormwolf wrote:The entire hell and Satan thing was just a way for the church to keep the general population obedient during the dark ages.


*cough*sowasthechurchorignally*couch*

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Post by Brendocon » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:35 pm

Legion wrote:logically if one exists than the other should as well, but that's a whole new kettle of fish...


How so?

Does this mean that Jack the Ripper was created by the cosmos to balance out the Pope?
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Post by Professor Smooth » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:54 pm

Brendocon wrote:
Legion wrote:logically if one exists than the other should as well, but that's a whole new kettle of fish...


How so?

Does this mean that Jack the Ripper was created by the cosmos to balance out the Pope?


Are you implying that the pope's evil was offset by Jack the Ripper? ;)
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Post by Bouncelot » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:36 pm

Stormwolf wrote:The entire hell and Satan thing was just a way for the church to keep the general population obedient during the dark ages.


Both concepts were prominent in Christian thought centuries before the Dark Ages, though (they're extensively mentioned in the Bible, for example).

Oh, and contrary to common perception the Bible never says that Satan's in charge of Hell, it actually portrays him as one of those who'll end up as "inmates" of Hell.

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Post by Stormwolf » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:53 pm

Bouncelot wrote:Oh, and contrary to common perception the Bible never says that Satan's in charge of Hell, it actually portrays him as one of those who'll end up as "inmates" of Hell.


So, he's going to ask you if you could pick up the soap in the showers?
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Post by IronHide » Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:03 pm

I believe in balance. So naturally if there is a "good" then there must be an "evil".

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Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:46 pm

I don't really believe in 'good' or 'evil' - they just seem like arbitary tags that people attach to events.
"The French attacked us and we killed them all! That's good!"
"We went to teach the corrupt English bastards some manners and they killed all our brave soldiers! That's bad!"
Etc.
The devil is a fairy story. A bit like God, reallly.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:08 pm

If god existed then there would be a hell.

but he doesnt so there isnt.
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Post by Obfleur » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:10 pm

What if Satan has killed God? What happens then :o

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Post by sprunkner » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:40 pm

One day I will go to heaven and be with God, sing his praises with the heavenly chorus, and squeal with delight as he eats my brains.

I just finished reading a book called A History of Hell by Alice K. Turner. It goes through all the different concepts of the afterlife throughout history.

The book discusses how with Satan we either have two choice: 1) to see him as an opposing force, as the counterbalance to God. This is kind of like yin-and-yang, or fire-and-ice in the Norse myths. I tend to think that Hell does not counterbalance Heaven, and evil does not counterbalance good. If God created everything, then everything would not be split between God and someone else. Ice and fire and male and female are dualistic forces, but good and evil are not.

The other view is to see evil as corruption-- that there are certain things that we can consider "good" like creation, love, hope, kindness-- and that evil is the corruption of those. I think this is a good point because meanness is not usually the opposite of kindness-- rather we are mean because we deliberately try to destroy the hope of kindness. And hate is surely a form of corrupted, aborted love.

The problem lies in saying that certain things are good. And always good. Even if we add the notion of corruption into them, it's still hard to say that creation, love, hope and kindness are always good. You have to stretch corruption pretty deep for examples of "bad love."

So do I believe in Satan and Hell? I'm not sure. Mormon theology has a Satan, but not quite a Hell, rather a series of progressive states to Godhood that one can abort by one's choices. Mormons tend to say that Satan is "whispering in my ear" or "putting bad thoughts in my head," but I know enough about psychology and unconscious desires not to swallow that. We all have potential for evil on our own that could surpass Lucifer.

I guess I do believe in a corrupted version of good as an evil force. It's probably an angel who fell from heaven. Or a heavenly fungus.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:20 pm

Heaven and hell, the biggest guilt trip ever.
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Post by The Last Autobot » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:42 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Heaven and hell, the biggest guilt trip ever.


Well guilt is good -from a psychodynamical point of view- it means you still grasp the reality principle and have the possibility (even a slightest one) to redeem yourself from any damage you ve done to yourself or anyone.

And getting back to the point. I dont think that either heaven or hell exist as "places" but more as states of existance.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:58 am

God forgives all, but ppl go to hell... nice.

One day the universe will end, FACT, and so no one will be hear to worship gods big ego, and thus, all of its pointless.
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Post by saysadie » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:33 am

Metal Vendetta wrote:I don't really believe in 'good' or 'evil' - they just seem like arbitary tags that people attach to events.


They're just words.

Where do words come from? People.

Every word is a bit like labels in a record store really.

I'd stop using them, but then I'd be a mime and people would throw things at me.

I don't believe in god, I don't believe in the devil, I do believe in people but what I lack is faith. Hell is other people.

In the end, we're all maggot food anyway. Party on!
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Post by Denyer » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:12 pm

Every word is a bit like labels in a record store really.


That was profound.

Personally, no matter how good Twin Peaks is, I doubt the existence of an actively malicious and/or classically pointy devil more than his figurative dad.

Did find this again, which may be of some small interest to people:

Code: Select all

From "The Encyclopedia of Religion"
----------------------------------------

_SATAN._ Although the name *Satan* sometimes has been connected with
the Hebrew verb *sut*, which means "to roam" (perhaps suggesting that
Satan acts as God's spy), it is more commonly derived from the root
*satan*, which means "to oppose, to plot against." The word thus
basically connotes an adversary. Its use in the Hebrew scriptures
(Old Testament) covers three types of beings as opponents: (1) a human
being, as in 2 *Samuel* 19:22, (2) an angelic being, as in *Numbers*
22:22-35, and (2) a particular adversary, as in *Zechariah* 3:1-2,
where *satan* functions as a common rather than a proper noun and does
not refer to "the Satan," but where the idea of a being having a
distinct personality is still conveyed. This supernatural being not
only acts as an adversary: his name itself means "an obstructor"
(Russell, 1977, p. 190). In the New Testament, Satan as the Devil is
called the "great dragon" and "ancient serpent" (*Rv.* 12:9).
However, while echoes of a Canaanite myth of God's conflict with the
dragon and the sea may be found in the Old Testament, Satan is not
associated with these references but is clearly mentioned in three
contexts (except for *Psalms* 109:6), in which he is inferred). The
first of these contexts is in the *Book of Job*, where Satan belongs
to the court of God and, with God's permission, tests Job. By
contrast, in a second occurence (*Zec.* 3), Satan, on his own
initiative, opposes Joshua. The third passage in the Old Testament
in which Satan figures (*1 Chr.* 21:1) is, according to George A.
Barton (1911),

   a further witness to the fact that Satan is now held to be
   responsible for evil. The chapter gives an account of
   David's census and the punishment for it, and is dependent
   on 2 Samuel 24; but whereas it is said in Samuel that
   Jahweh said to David, "Go, number Israel" because he was
   angry with the people, it is said in Chronicles that Satan
   "moved David to number Israel." Satan is clearly a
   development out of the group of spirits which were in
   earlier days thought to be from Jahweh's court, members
   of which were sent upon errands of disaster to men. (p. 598)

Scholars seem somewhat divided on the question of the extent to which
evil may be associated with Satan in the Old Testament. It has been
argued that Satan "was not evil but became evil by identification with
his functions" in the course of time (Robbins, 1966, p. 130). One
might distinguish here between two approaches toward Satan in the Old
Testament. According to one approach, represented by Giovanni Papini,
Jeffrey Burton Russell, John Noel Schofield, Gustav Davidson, and
others, Satan is still not quite God's adversary, only his minion.
Other scholars, such as Edward Langton and Ronald S. Wallace, see a
more definite movement toward an association of evil with Satan. But
the transition from the *satan* of the Old Testament, which prefigures
the Devil in some way, to the *Satanas* of the New Testament, who *is*
the Devil, is clear enough.

The figure of Satan in noncanonical Hebrew literature emerges as an
adversary of God, but, as such apocalyptic works as *Jubilees*, the
*Testament of Reuben*, the *Book of the Secrets of Enoch (2 Enoch)*,
and the Qumran documents sho, he is also the leader of the fallen
angels. It should be noted, however, that although Satan comes to
stand for evil, in

   Hebrew thought in the Old Testament there is no suggestion
   of any dualism, whether temporal, spatial or ethical... any
   philosophy of evil culled from the Bible must find room for
   evil within the concept of God and within his purpose.

This also holds true for much apocalyptic literature; signs of temporal,
spatial, and ethical dualism began to emerge only in later Judaism. At
the temporal level, the view is developed that history consists of two
ages. The present age is marked by the Devil's power, which will be
nullified at the end of the present age when the divine age is ushered
in. At the spatial level, the kingdoms of the Lord and Satan are
contrasted as being in cosmic opposition; at the ethical level, man is
seen as being affected by sin, which will be overcome in a divine
denouement. Persian influence has been traced in this movement toward
dualism. But Hebrew and Christian thought stopped short of specifying
that the Devil is entirely evil in essence. This tension between
explicit monotheism and implicit dualism became characteristic of
Judaism and Christianity, as contrasted with Zoroastrianism,
Manichaeism, and gnosticism. "The Devil," as Luther said, "is God's
Devil."

Christianity synthesized Greek and Jewish concepts of the Devil. The
word *devil* is actually derived from the Greek *diabolos*, which has
the dual sense of "accuser" and "obstructor." If the Old Testament,
according to later tradition, implicates Satan in the fall of man, the
New Testament refers clearly to the fall of Satan himself in
*2 Peter* 2:4 and in *Revelation* 12:7-9. Again, in contrast with the
Old Testament, the power of the Devil is often mentioned (e.g.,
*Lk.* 4:6). He is also identified with other names: *Beelzebul* ("lord
of flies"), *Beelzebub* ("lord of dung"), and, with somewhat less
critical certainty, *Lucifer*.

In the ministry of Jesus Christ,

   there is a constant campaign against Satan from the temptation
   after Jesus' Baptism until his death on the cross, and, in
   each act of healing or exorcism, there is anticipated the
   ultimate defeat of Satan and the manifestation of the power
   of the new age,

as is the case in Mark's gospel, the central par of which calls upon
Jesus' disciples

   to participate through suffering in his own confrontation
   with the power of Satan       (Davis, 1984, p. 952).

Indeed, Mark and Paul are more inclined to use the name *Satan*; other
New Testament writers prefer other forms. Nevertheless, the motif of
both the original (*Rom.* 16:20) and the ultimate and eschatological
fall of Satan (*Rv.* 20:2, 7-10) undergirds the New Testament, though
the latter is more prominent. The Devil is the lord of both *aion*
and *kosmos*, words used in the context of sinful human society and
probably suggestive of the dichotomy of spirit and matter in Greek
thought. Russell summarized the chief characteristics of the Devil in
the New Testament as follows (1977, p. 256): (1) he is the personifi-
cation of evil; (2) he physically attacks or possesses humans; (3) he
tempts people to sin in order to destroy them or recruit them in his
struggle against God; (4) he accuses and punishes sinners; (5) he
leads a host of evil spirits, fallen angels, or demons; (6) he has
assimilated many evil qualities of ancient destructive nature spirits
or ghosts; (7) he will rule this world until the coming of the kingdom
of God, and in the meantime will be engaged in constant warfare against
Christ; (8) he will be defeated by Christ at the end of the world.
Above all, he is identified with temptation and death, like his
counterpart Mara in Buddhism.

In early Christianity it was believed that the death of Jesus redeemed
mankind from the Devil, who had been overcome in his own house by
Christ's descent in hell (*Mt.* 12:29). Thus, although the idea of
the final conquest of evil or the Devil is not unique to Christianity
but is also present in Zoroastrianism and Judaism,

   the unique note in the Christian message is the announcement
   that Satan is already being defeated in Christ
            (Ling, 1961, p. 102).

Despite this general picture, however, Russell notes that the position
of the Devil remains anomalous in the New Testament, and the

   elements of cosmic dualism in the synoptic gospels are
   much stronger in Luke than in Mark and Matthew and stronger
   in John than in any of the synoptics
            (1977, p. 232).


Satan's name appears as *Shaytan* in the Qur'an, although it is not
clear whether the name is Arabic or not. Shaytan shares certain
functions of the Judeo-Christian Satan, such as leading people astray
(4:83), but there is a significant extension of this view in that
Satan is accused of tampering with divine verbal revelation (22:52).
However, it is in his role as Iblis (2:34, etc.) that al-Shaytan is
most striking (Watt, 1970), p. 155). He is deposed for refusing to
bow before man as the other angels had done, but is allowed, after his
refusal, to tempt mortals. According to an established tradition,
"Satan sits in the blood of Adam's children" and thus "could be equated
with *nafs*, the lower principle, the flesh" (Schimmel, 1975, p. 193).

In Islam, the figure of Satan achieves a mystical dimension not found
in Judaism and Christianity, where the Devil is more or less exclusively
assocated with evil and the underworld. This association may help

   account for the Western tradition that Satan is not only
   Lord of evil and of death but is also associated with
   fertility and sexuality, a trait evident in the witches'
   orgy and in the horns the Devil often wears
            (Russell, 1977, p. 64).

Satan plays an important role in the folklore of Judaism, Christianity,
and Islam. Already by the end of the apocalyptic period he had been
identified with the following mythological themes in Jewish demonology
and folklore: darkness, the underworld, and the air, sexual temptation
and molestation, the goat, the lion, the frog or toad, and the serpent
or dragon. In rabbinic folklore, Satan is not linked with the legend
of Lilith, but he appears to Eve as a beautiful angel, and tempts Rabbi
'Aqiva' ('Aqiva' ben Yosef, first-second century CE) in the form of a
woman. According to the Talmud he was created on the sixth day of
creation. His great rival was Michael, the leader of the angels. Satan
was deemed capable of assuming any form, and there are accounts in
hagiographic literature of his grappling physically with Christian
saints.

Both similarities and differences may be noted between Christian and
Islamic perceptions regarding Satan. One difference, according to
A.J. Wensinck (1971, p. 669) lies in the fact that

   Muslim thought remains undecided as to whether he was an
   angel or a *djinn* and does not pronounce an opinion on
   the possibility of his being 'a fallen angel.'

A similarity is found in Satan's characteristic ability of assuming
any shape, or none at all. His ability to appear as an angel, the
dreaded "mid-day Devil" of the *Psalms*, was what made Mary fearful
at the Annunciation. As a *hatif* (one who is heard but not seen),
Satan similarly almost beguiled 'Ali into not washign the body of
the Prophet, until 'Ali was corrected by another *hatif*. Thus the
imperative of distinguishing between good and bad spirits due to
Satan's operations is common to both Christianity and Islam.

The serpent or snake is perhaps the best-known symbol associated
with Satan. *Genesis* (3:1ff.) mentions the serpent but not Satan;
in *Romans* (16:20), however, Paul suggests that the serpent was
Satan, an association already made in apocalyptic literature. This
would imply that Satan tempted Adam, but the consensus of early
Christian tradition was that Satan fell after Adam (Russell, 1977,
p. 232). There may be good reason for believing that not until
Origen in the third century CE was it clearly established that Satan's
sin was pride, that he fell before Adam's creation, and that he was
the serpent in the garden of Eden. Agobard of Lyons (ninth century)
saw Satan as seducing Eve through the serpent, and Peter Lombard
(eleventh century) saw him as becoming the serpent. In a Jewish text,
the *Apocalypse of Moses*, it is written that the serpent who tempted
Eve was merely the tool of Satan, who, as a shining angel, tempted
the serpent to share his envy of Adam and Eve. In later Jewish
literature, the identities of Satan and the serpent coalesce, or are
closely associated with one another.

Satan is referred to by two different names in the Qur'anic account
of creation: he is called Iblis when he refuses to bow down before
Adam, and *al-Shaytan* ("the demon") when he is the tempter (Wensinck,
1971, p. 669). Though there is no allusion to the serpent in the
creation account in the Qur'an, the term *shaytan* was probably applied
by the Arabs to serpents (Langton, 1969, p. 9). Once Satan had been
identified with *nafs*, or man's lower appetites, according to
Annemarie Schimmel, the *nafs* was seen as taking the form of a snake.

   This serpent can be turned into a useful rod, just as Moses
   transformed serpents into rods. More frequent, however, is
   the idea that the power of the spiritual master can blind
   the snake; according to folk belief, the snake is blinded
   by the sight of an emerald (the connection of the pir's
   spiritual power with the green color of the emerald is
   significant). Thus, his influence renders the *nafs*-
   snake harmless          (Schimmel, 1975, p. 113).

The contrast with the *kundalini* in some forms of yoga is very
striking.

Satan is persistently, if not consistently, associated with the
serpent. Leaving aside the question of the actual nature of Satan
as formulated by the Council of Toledo (447), or the tendency to
consider him an imaginative personification of evil, the association
with the serpent needs to be accounted for. Several views have been
advanced. At the homiletic level, the serpent has been taken to
represent cunning. At a psychoanalytic level, the serpent has been
associated with emergent sexuality. From a broader, history of
religions approach,

   the serpent is the symbol of the Gods of vegetation;
   without being the representative of sex as such, he
   represents the temptations of the divinities that
   sacralize sex         (Ricoeur, 1967, p. 249).

But perhaps in the end one inclines toward the hermeneutic
suggested by Ricoeur that the serpent

   represents the aspect of evil that could not be absorbed
   into the responsible freedom of man, which is perhaps
   also the aspect that Greek tragedy tried to purify by
   spectacle, song, and choral invocation. The Jews
   themselves although they were well armed against
   demonology by their intransigent monotheism, were
   constrained by truth, as Aristotle would say, to concede
   something, to concede as much as they culd without
   destroying the monotheistic basis of their faith, to the
   the great dualisms which they were to discover after the
   Exile. The theme of the serpent represents the first
   landmark along the road of the Satanic theme which, in
   the Persian epoch, permitted the inclusion of near-dualism
   in the faith of Israel. Of course, Satan will never be
   another god; the Jews will always remember that the
   serpent is a part of the creation; but at least the symbol
   of Satan allowed them to balance the movement toward the
   concentration of evil in man by a second movement which
   attributed its origin to a prehuman, demonic reality.
            (ibid. pp. 258-259).


Although Satan has come to symbolize evil so closely as to become
synonymous with it, he has also been associated with some positive
concepts. He was worshiped in certain gnostic circles for enabling
knowledge to be brought forth. The Sufi tradition has tended at
times to see in him the ultimate monotheist who would bow down
before naught but God, even in defiance of God's own command. It
is also worth noting that there is no such fixed focus of moral
evil as Satan in Hinduism (but see O'Flaherty, 1976), notwithstanding
its shared cultural matrix with Buddhism, which did produce the figure
of Mara. Despite the nuances of difference in Jewish, Christian,
Greek, and Islamic conceptualizations of Satan, they may all share a
common heritage....

"The Encyclopedia of Religion", ed. by Eliade/Adams, 1987; pp. 81-4.
____________________________________________________________________


_DEVILS._

...

_Debate on Origins._ Speculation regarding the origin of belief in
devils has proceeded along several routes. According to one view,
belief in devilish beings may have its roots in the experience of
prehistoric man. At this time wild animals of strange shapes and
sizes roamed the earth, and it would have been easy for early
human beings to assume that nonhuman evil spirits abounded and
assumed animal forms. Alongside this explanation may be placed the
anthropological view, according to which beliefs in all classes of
spiritual beings -- benign or malign -- are derived from belief in
the disembodied spirits of the dead. Considerable controversy
surrounds this view, but it may be safe to affirm that among many
peoples the hostile spirits of the dead would be identified as devils.
Psychological explanations for the origins of devils include the
ideas of hallucinations and projection with various degrees of
sophistication. As early as 1218, Gervase of Tilbury suggested that
belief in lamia or nightmare was simply nocturnal hallucination, and
some modern scholars would argue that man manufactures his devils out
of his fears. It is often considered self-evident that the

   conception of such beings doubtless stems from man's
   instinctive fear of the unknown, the strange and
   horrific. It is significant that belief in evil
   spirits or Devils can exist without the idea of the
   Devil, i.e. the personification of the principle of
   evil in a single being  (Brandon, 1970, p. 229).

...

In addition to the historical (i.e., prehistorical); anthropological
(i.e., animistic); and psychological (i.e., psychoanalytical)
explanations, one must consider also the theological aspect, for
what is really involved is an explanation of the problem of evil.
How is its existence to be reconciled with belief in a benevolent
God?... Evil creatures that defy God, despite his potential
supremacy, may offer the scaffolding for some kind of theological
explanation. Given the existence of evil, one can offer a certain
range of justifications: (1) what is perceived as evil is necessary
for greater good; (2) evil exists as a necessary part of a good
creation; (3) the universe is not perfect but is being perfected,
hence the existence of evil; and (4) evil is necessary to retain
free will. The existence of devils, as of the Devil, can be
reconciled in varoius ways, as representing the principle of evil
either singly or collectively and emerging out of an attempt to
come to existential grips with the fact that evil exists. Since
most events are caused by an agent, one might assume that evil is
also caused by an agent, which may itself be either intrinsically
or instrumentally evil....

Ibid., p. 321.
______________

EOF

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saysadie
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Post by saysadie » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:51 pm

Denyer wrote:
Every word is a bit like labels in a record store really.


That was profound.


Is that sarcasm? Looks good on on you. :p

Was meant to be slightly off. I hate feeling the need to explain the things I've said.

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Post by Denyer » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:56 pm

saysadie wrote:Is that sarcasm?


Unusually, no. It's a concise example of language as operating by common consent.

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Post by BB Shockwave » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:27 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:God forgives all, but ppl go to hell... nice.

One day the universe will end, FACT, and so no one will be hear to worship gods big ego, and thus, all of its pointless.


Umm, not quite so. God forgives all, but a devout atheist will not cease to say that God doesn't exist - even after he's dead. So he will be denied to be with God because he wants it to be this way.

God forgives all, but not all people forgive God, if you get what I mean.

Even Jack the ripper could have redeemed himself if he realised and repented his sins iin the last moments of his life, however unlikely that is. (It's what Purgatory is for, though I really find the concept made-of. Jesus never spoke of the Purgatory, which makes it seem a little 'taken out of the blue' concept).
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Post by Denyer » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:34 pm

BB Shockwave wrote:a devout atheist will not cease to say that God doesn't exist - even after he's dead


Hard to argue with when you're talking with him/her/it, surely?

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Post by Guest » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:21 pm

Denyer wrote:
BB Shockwave wrote:a devout atheist will not cease to say that God doesn't exist - even after he's dead


Hard to argue with when you're talking with him/her/it, surely?


I think what BB Shockwave means here is that even if the atheist lives a 'good' life, by denying God, he will be unable to enter Heaven, but will spend eternity in Limbo.

But, as this topic is about supernatural malign forces, I'd have to say Entropy would be a suitable candidate for being the big evil, even if it is only a word to describe the theoretically unavoidable destruction of the material universe.

impactor returns 2.0 wrote:One day the universe will end, FACT


Actually, the jury is still out on whether or not the universe will end. In fact, they are still out on what exactly the 'end' of the universe will be if it does indeed have one.

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Post by Denyer » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:40 pm

Rebis wrote:I think what BB Shockwave means here is that even if the atheist lives a 'good' life, by denying God, he will be unable to enter Heaven, but will spend eternity in Limbo.


Ah, the "God's too much of a bastard to poke his head out of the door occasionally" argument.

That's another kind of hell, I suppose...

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Post by Guest » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:06 pm

Denyer wrote:
Rebis wrote:I think what BB Shockwave means here is that even if the atheist lives a 'good' life, by denying God, he will be unable to enter Heaven, but will spend eternity in Limbo.


Ah, the "God's too much of a bastard to poke his head out of the door occasionally" argument.

That's another kind of hell, I suppose...


Only where the only sin is non-belief.

The way I was told it by a Catholic friend was that Heaven is where all the repentent Christians go, Limbo is where their non-believing counterparts go, Purgatory is for unrepentent Christians (who, by repenting can get relocated to Heaven. Woo!), and Hell is for everyone else.

Then again, if God was a real extremist, Limbo would probably be the worst place to get sent, what with non-belief scoring pretty high on the extremist's black list.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:33 pm

I am Satan. I m God. prove me wrong, oh you cant. thats religon in a nut shell.
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Post by The Last Autobot » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:57 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I m God. prove me wrong, oh you cant.


That wouldnt be possible the only thing you do is posting here.

On the other hand it would be the reason that the world is so wrong. After all the -maybe- less than 5% time you are not here is not enough to set things right . :p
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