Richard Dawkins - man on a misssion

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Denyer
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Post by Denyer » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:10 am

Tell you what, I'll be really impressed if anyone visits a faith healer and regrows a limb...

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Post by Best First » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:50 am

Saying that anti-Semitism is incompatible with Christianity is most certainly NOT naive.


Ok, I can live with delusional if you prefer.

Anti-Semitism is contradicted by every single thing that the Bible says about the Jews. It is a belief that simply doesn't fit with Christianity on any level.


Except on the practical every day actions of the followers of said religions one…

History doesn't come into it.


Aahahahahahahahahahah. Yes, we wouldn’t want to introduce facts and the muddying issue of how members of a faith group act into the discussion would we?

Although, if we are leaving history out of it you should probably shut up about Martin Luther King, eh?

I'll give you the ursury thing as something imposed by the Church (though it's not necessarily native to Christianity).


like the concept of charity?

“Oh, yes, all the bad stuff we co-opted over the years, that’s not proper Christian stuff. All the good ideas we nicked though, they are God’s very own so in essence we invented them.”

It’s almost as if there’s some kind of… double standard.

But the Jews would have been a very distinctive (and different) group within European society at the time regardless of what religious path was taken. Their role in society was like that of Asylum Seekers and illegal immigrants today - taking the jobs nobody else wants (but which need to be done) whilst becoming society's hate figures. Yes, we've got exactly the same prejudicial attitude (albeit directed at a different group) in today's secular society as you're blaming on religion in a previous era. Yes, it took a more extreme form at certain times and places - but if the BNP or the National Front thought they could get away with lynching a few Asylum seekers occasionally, the chances are that they'd do it.


good job they don’t have a popular mandate provided by the prevalent faith then isn’t it? What was that about a secular society again?

Sorry, but I fail to see why things that are utterly against even the most elementary of Christian teachings can be described as "Christian".


I think it generally happens when they are done by a bunch of Christians.

Additionally the fact that Christianity has judaic origins means it is 'incompatible' with anti-semitism is, sorry, idiotic. If anything, given the nature of group identity, it is not suprising at all that Chrisianity rapidly attempted to distance itself from Judiasm.


Two religious groups distancing themselves from each other (as Christianity and Judaism did in the first few centuries AD) doesn't mean that there will be prejudice or persecution from one group onto another.


No, it just makes it more likely. Oh, but history doesn’t come into it does it? Sorry, forgot we were avoiding facts.

So, essentially, when someone who claims to be a Christian does something good, its BECAUSE of their Christianity, but when someone who claim’s to be a Christian does something bad, its “oh, well, they have missed the point, its not real Christianity, despite the mandate that religion provides clearly playing its part in fuelling their actions, but we conveniently choose to ignore that as it ultimately flies in the face of any perceived benefits of religion and my mind can’t quite cope with that”. I see.

Oh, and faith healers. Brilliant. AH HAVE THA POWHUR!

Anyway – is this Dawkins thing repeated at some point?
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:56 pm

I think it'll be on E4 at some point, just checked the torrent sites but it's not there.

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Post by Scraplet » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:05 pm

Best First wrote:
Oh, and faith healers. Brilliant. AH HAVE THA POWHUR!

He-man? Was he a faith healer?

Best First wrote: Anyway – is this Dawkins thing repeated at some point?


I've seached the upcoming listings and I can't see it. That must make it the only programme the Channel 4 haven't repeated on More4 or E4 or whatever. Might reapeat it after the second part has aired, maybe?

I missed it as well after all that. I connected up the wrong scart leads so my video wasn't actually connected :(

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Post by Best First » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:34 pm

i suspect i will find it a bit simplistic, but i'm curious to see how something like his ha been put together from a mainstream TV perspective.
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Post by Bouncelot » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:56 pm

Besty wrote:So, essentially, when someone who claims to be a Christian does something good, its BECAUSE of their Christianity, but when someone who claim’s to be a Christian does something bad, its “oh, well, they have missed the point, its not real Christianity, despite the mandate that religion provides clearly playing its part in fuelling their actions, but we conveniently choose to ignore that as it ultimately flies in the face of any perceived benefits of religion and my mind can’t quite cope with that”. I see.


Christianity means "follower of Christ". The examples I pointed to were examples of people acting on what Jesus did and taught. The examples you pointed to were examples of people acting contrary to what Jesus did and taught. Do you see the difference there? People acting in accordance with the teachings of Jesus are doing it because of their Christian faith. People acting against the teachings of Jesus are doing it in spite of their Christian faith.

As to the origins of charity point, I looked back at a brief summary of some stuff I'd previously read on the subject which basically said that historical evidence seemed to show that charity was a concept introduced to the Classical world by Jews and Christians. So there's some historical basis for what I said there.

Denyer wrote:If they're motivated by something, the actions aren't selfless -- whether done for personal satisfaction, eternal reward or whatever else.


Ah, but anything you do is motivated by something else you wouldn't be doing it, would you? All you're saying there is that there's no such thing as a selfless action. Personally my main motivation for doing good is out of gratitude for what God has done for me. Though I guess there's also a bit of enjoying knowing that I've been a blessing to somebody.

Denyer wrote:Fear seems to figure rather highly, although it's more often phrased as "well, if it isn't true..."


I honestly don't think that I've met anyone who became a Christian out of fear. Experience of God, being convinced by the evidence, seeing the difference that God has made in peoples' lives are all common, though. And, of course, Christianity is rapidly growing in China where persecution of Christians is a reality - fear would seem to be a factor holding back conversions, if anything.

Denyer wrote:Saddeningly few seem to equate belief with love or unconditional regard for a creator. It tends to be more the traditional "love me or else" deity that gets preached.


I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. On the one hand, you seem to be saying that few religious people have love or unconditional regard for a creator as a central point of their faith. On the other, you're talking about a particular take on God which doesn't even apply to all religions.

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Post by inflatable dalek » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:11 pm

Frankly, I'm stagered that Richerd Dawkins can wake up next to Lalla Ward every day but still not believe in a devine being...

Christianity lost me with the homophobia thing frankly, I refuse to believe my best friend is a "sinner" because he's gay... And frankly the Church has never offered any concrete reason as to why it's bad other than "Just because"...
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Post by Legion » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:33 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:Frankly, I'm stagered that Richerd Dawkins can wake up next to Lalla Ward every day but still not believe in a devine being...


:up:

inflatable dalek wrote: And frankly the Church has never offered any concrete reason as to why it's bad other than "Just because"...


probably because homosexuality has been around longer than the church has, and the church doesn't like things have been established for longer than itself...

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Post by Denyer » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:59 pm

Yeah, I'd say Lalla Ward is more convincing evidence than most holy texts...

Bouncelot wrote:Christianity means "follower of Christ".


Not in any dictionary I've got to hand. 'Christian' is a professed belief, self-applied label and tickbox in census materials.

Were we to hold everyone to our interpretations of what it means to follow Jesus, I suspect we'd come up with lists in the low hundreds, with most of the names differing on each list.

Bouncelot wrote:there's no such thing as a selfless action.


Yup.

Bouncelot wrote:I honestly don't think that I've met anyone who became a Christian out of fear.


I honestly don't think I've met anyone who believes, rather than wants things to be true.

Bouncelot wrote:Christianity is rapidly growing in China where persecution of Christians is a reality - fear would seem to be a factor holding back conversions, if anything.


Have we had the "solidarity in the here-and-now, something to rally behind, and reassurance of eventual improvement in the next life if not this one" bit of the conversation yet?

Bouncelot wrote:you're talking about a particular take on God which doesn't even apply to all religions.


Mmm. Universal salvation is widely considered a heresy by most churches, for fairly obvious reasons.

People can't forgive, but equally many don't want judgement/retribution/etc to come from them.

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