Richard Dawkins - man on a misssion

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:59 pm

I spent weeks with a J team that kept comming to my door each Sunday - In the end they stopped comming round because I asked so many question he couldnt answer I belive I was converting them!

Looking forward to the programe tonight - I pretty much live in the camp that Religon is the root of evil on earth.
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:21 pm

I'm kind of looking forward to their next visit - I have pages of notes and if they haven't read up on their theology I'll have limping back to JWHQ with their brains full of atheist ideas. And if all else fails I'll start preaching back at them: "In the beginning was Primus, lord of the light gods, and Unicron, lord of chaos..."

I can, quite convincingly, talk about Transformers-as-religion for hours, and woe betide any evangelist who tries to interrupt.

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Post by Bouncelot » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:08 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Looking forward to the programe tonight - I pretty much live in the camp that Religon is the root of evil on earth.


Which is pretty much rubbish. Religious extremism is a root of some kinds of evil, but religion has done an awful lot of good things - charity is, originally, a religious idea, and religious charities still make up a very very large chunk of charitable activity. People like Martin Luther King and Ghandi were strongly motivated by religion, whilst people like Stalin and Pol Pot and (to a lesser degree) Hitler rejected religion. Condemn the extremists but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

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Post by Denyer » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:18 pm

Well, that was a fairly good introduction for the layman... some of which has already come up in this thread, although the thrust of his argument was the danger of resolving all questions down to one answer, filtering reality through that reduction, and failing to continue asking questions.

charity is, originally, a religious idea


No, it isn't. It's the notion that what goes around comes around -- a literal karma; help others and if/when you need it yourself (which was far more the case centuries back -- where, for example, care for the aged wasn't centrally organised or widely offered) there's more chance of it being there.

Building a better society in which people help each other based on pragmatism and genuine regard for one another is far preferable to doing it because it's on an ecumenical to-do list.

Hitler rejected religion.


He was also a vegetarian. Evil-minded dictators can have good ideas.

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Post by Best First » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:33 pm

Bouncelot wrote:Hitler rejected religion.


yet followed through on a milleniums worth of Christan anti-semitism...

i can't quite believe you have claimed that charity was a 'religous idea' by the way. bloody heck.
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Post by Denyer » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:44 pm

He's probably referring to the church's organisation of tithing and redistribution.

Some people link the words Christianity and Charity, although the root is older than that... caritas comes from carus, and somewhat later, French solidified a connection with charite. Regardless, the exchange of assistance (with one animal offering it without being required to do so) isn't even exclusively a human behaviour.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:34 pm

Religon is still the root of evil - its takes an open mind to understand that.

I find ppl that actually follow religon are so blind to the obvious its impposible to reason with them - but then faith is blind.

Religon kills ppl, it kills ppl every day, we are talking 1000's - be it AIDS in africa and the US not helping due to religous belifes, or religous morons in Iraq blowing each other up in the name of Alah, to Palstine and Israel taking pot shots over 'whos land it is?'... or if you want to open your eyes some more... to one I love...
The sodding church, I love the church in crappy places like mexico and stuff, nice pristine churchs, golden roofs, donation of money to the vaticans coffers, whilst your ppl live in **** and die.

Since the dawn of time religon has been responsible for more death and destruction then anything else on earth, and im pretty sure if that Iranian nut head gets his hands on nukes there will be even more death and destruction on a scale only god can probably imagine if there was one.

Religon was invented to controll the mases, and by goly it does at a horrible price.

I know whats wrong and whats right, end of story. I dont need a ******* book, or a god to tell me otherwise because I have a brain.
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Post by Denyer » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:58 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Religon was invented to controll the mases


Not entirely. To consolidate and console; in some situations that meant unity in opposition to a ruling power, with simultaneous promising that "you'll get an eventual reward, even though things aren't great in the here-and-now, as long as you jump through these specific hoops." It's a form of directing people, at least.

Religions that don't make salvation conditional on themselves are certainly rare things indeed.

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Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:29 am

Hitler rejected religion.

And George W. Bush and Tony Blair are Christians. They're still mass-murdering ****s though. What's your point?

Well, I enjoyed the programme anyway. Punching the air every couple of minutes and shouting "Yes! About time someone stuck it to those smug bastards!*"

And I borrowed a copy of the Bible and copied out Jesus' family tree (Matthew 1:2-16 vs. Luke 3:23-37) for the next time the Jovies come over. I can't believe that's such a glaring error and yet no-one ever mentions it.

[edit] ...and while I'm at it, this leaflet says that "...Cain married one of his sisters, or possibly a niece." Looking a little further ahead to Genesis 19:3 we find that Lot, who was having a bit of a dry spell, had, in the literally biblical sense, two of his daughters. Is this sort of thing commonly known? Is this what we should be teaching to our children? Incest and paedophilia**?

Sorry to come across like a Chick tract about Islam, it's just that I'm rehearsing for next time these people drop by ;)

*Not you by the way. If you're religious and reading this, I mean all the other smug bastards. Who believe other stuff anyway.
**Probably

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Post by Denyer » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:19 am

Oh, just found this and thought a few might enjoy the historical treatise:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

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Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:54 am

No need - they directed me to Isiah 13:17-19 (a prophesy about the fall of Babylon), and, reading in context, I chanced across Isiah 13:9-16...the bold is mine, highlighting the words I have problems with.

9 “Look! The day of Jehovah itself is coming, cruel both with fury and with burning anger, in order to make the land an object of astonishment, and that it may annihilate [the land’s] sinners out of it...15 Every one that is found will be pierced through, and every one that is caught in the sweep will fall by the sword; 16 and their very children will be dashed to pieces before their eyes. Their houses will be pillaged, and their own wives will be raped.

Now, if some dude told me this down the pub, I'd be making frantic but minute signals to my mates to get me the **** out of here sharpish. Why I'd want to join a religon that had this as part of their sales pitch is quite beyond me.

*ahem*
"So, Mr. Jehovah's Witness. Do you think raping sinners' wives is acceptable?"

[edit] d'oh, just read Denyer's link. :lol:

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Post by Best First » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:08 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Religon is still the root of evil


so are you saying as an athiest you have never done anything bad?

religion is not the root of ALL evil - sweeping statements like this only help people dismiss your agreuments.

People are the root of all evil, religion however is one of the most effective fertilisers of said crop.

i missed the show as i was watching a Radio 4 ercording. Check me out.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:38 pm

Personally I think Religon is the root of all evil because I put it on a plane of evil higher then anything else. Sure ive done bad things, I havent been responsible for killing millions of ppl unlike religon.

Honestly tho, does everything I say have to be perefctly considered? im just trying to put a feeeling across, Im sure ppl know where im comming from with my statement.

Ie, I think religon is evil and $h!t. - that doesnt mean I actually think religon is poo out of my body like a physical thing... its not so literal.
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Post by BB Shockwave » Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:12 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:Dammit, did I mention I got doorstepped by the Jehovah's Witnesses on Saturday?

You see traditionally I would just tell them to go and **** themselves and slam the door in their faces, but nearly 5 years on Transfans has taught me that Christians are people too and instead of just insulting them and their beliefs (and their mothers) I should try and communicate with these people as if they were sensible and rational and not the worst kind of ****s who should be avoided like the plague.



You had to remind me they are Christians, too. :bf: The shame...
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Post by Bouncelot » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:29 pm

Denyer wrote:
charity is, originally, a religious idea


No, it isn't. It's the notion that what goes around comes around -- a literal karma; help others and if/when you need it yourself (which was far more the case centuries back -- where, for example, care for the aged wasn't centrally organised or widely offered) there's more chance of it being there.


As I understand it, the idea of charity originally came from religious roots. Oh, and Karma is a religious idea as well.

Besty wrote:yet followed through on a milleniums worth of Christan anti-semitism...


Anti-Semitism is utterly incompatible with Christianity. Christianity started out as a Jewish sect. Jesus (you know, that guy Christians worship) was a Jew, as were the Apostles. The Bible (including the New Testament), if anything, tends to put the Jews above ofther ethnic groups, not below.The European history of anti-semitism happened in spite of Christianity, not because of it.

MV wrote:And George W. Bush and Tony Blair are Christians. They're still mass-murdering ****s though. What's your point?


That, contrary to Impy's claims about Religion being the root of all evil, the perpetrators of the worst crimes in recorded history didn't follow any religion. Of course, there are those who question how genuine both Bush's and Blair's professed Christianity is.

MV wrote:And I borrowed a copy of the Bible and copied out Jesus' family tree (Matthew 1:2-16 vs. Luke 3:23-37) for the next time the Jovies come over. I can't believe that's such a glaring error and yet no-one ever mentions it.


Because scholars seem to think that Matthew was tracing Joseph's family tree and Luke was tracing Mary's.

MV wrote: ...and while I'm at it, this leaflet says that "...Cain married one of his sisters, or possibly a niece." Looking a little further ahead to Genesis 19:3 we find that Lot, who was having a bit of a dry spell, had, in the literally biblical sense, two of his daughters. Is this sort of thing commonly known? Is this what we should be teaching to our children? Incest and paedophilia**?


Um, firstly Lot's daughters were grown up by this point (plus it was their idea - so hardly paedophilia). Secondly, just because the Bible records an event, that doesn't mean that it approves of the event.


And a word to Impy: You seem to think that the effect of religion is irredemably bad. So how do you fit the millions and millions of things that Christians do to make the world a better place. My church is part of a group of churches that only number a few hundred churches worldwide, yet those churches serve the poor in numerous ways. Some examples off the top of my head: providing homes for street kids in Guadalahara, Mexico, providing facilities for lepers in Mumbai, India, feeding a tribe in Africa (I think it was Kenya) when there was a famine and restocking their livestock so they could provide for themselves afterwards. In the UK we provide facilities for the homeless in Bedford and Birmingham. We have churches that help asylum seekers to feel at home in Britain. Here in Coventry, we looked to see what services for the disadvantaged were needed in the city and, as a result, started a series of kidsclubs for kids with autistic spectrum disorder. And those examples are just skimming the surface of what a group of just a few hundred churches does. How can you possibly square this with your assertion that religion is the root of all evil?

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:09 pm

simple mate - I dont need a church or religon to do what your doing. nor do many charitys or other organisations the world over.

Yet, by simply going to church (to support your religon) you support religon, and thus, death.
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Post by Denyer » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:41 am

Bouncelot wrote:As I understand it, the idea of charity originally came from religious roots. Oh, and Karma is a religious idea as well.


Impressive for a behaviour that would seem to predate humans, wouldn't you say?

Words are typically not the things they describe. 'Charity' is a description of a behaviour. Karma depends on whether you're referencing Hinduism, Buddhism or something else -- plenty of other words could be used to describe a hopeful social contract.

There's a semantic point as to whether the beliefs of dictators and mass-murderers could constitute a religion. After all, that requires congregration and preaching of personal faith... say, the spiritual and physical superiority of a master race, which Adolf of course didn't do, especially at Nuremberg to rapturous applause...

It would certainly be hard to argue that Stalin and Hitler did not act out of personal belief.

Without intending much offence to Mark, I think religion being intrinsically evil is a tad simplistic. Transferrence of authority and validity for actions to the construction of an invisible external entity is a powerful thing, though. Indeed, few things are more dangerous than an enemy who can be psychologically wound up to the point of not fearing death or pain, for which cultural dogma provides a fertile base.

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Post by Professor Smooth » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:49 am

Bouncelot wrote:
As I understand it, the idea of charity originally came from religious roots.


Well then, you understand it wrong, now don't you? If you think about it, if your understanding of something is wrong, then it's not really understanding. And, if it's not really understanding then I guess it boils down to you simply being wrong.

Your religion is a farce. A laughable relic of a time when people thought the world was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, and that women were simply deformed men who were created to be completely subserviant to men. The fact that so many people, at least, claim to believe it is all the proof I need that the majority of people are ignorant beyond comprehension and deserving of whatever those who choose to take advantage of that ignorance decide.

Abortion is not murder.

Homosexuality does not hurt anybody.

Condoms do not promote pre-marital sex.

Dinosaurs were not made up to discredit The Bible.

God has never told any leader of any group to perform a violent act that did not directly benefit said leader.

It's crap. The Bible is nothing more than a record of what we think that people thought thousands of years ago.

Get over it. If you choose to continue following the crap that has been fed down your throat, you choose ignorance. You're not only harming yourself, but the combined might of your ignorant masses are harming everybody else. So stop. Stop harming the rest of us.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:54 am

Denyer wrote:Without intending much offence to Mark, I think religion being intrinsically evil is a tad simplistic. Transferrence of authority and validity for actions to the construction of an invisible external entity is a powerful thing, though. Indeed, few things are more dangerous than an enemy who can be psychologically wound up to the point of not fearing death or pain, for which cultural dogma provides a fertile base.


Your right, its simplistic. I find it scary that I can decalre religon evil, provide a concept that religon kills, remove any sense of good by also declaring that there ppl do alot of good in the world without religon. And then I find that religous ppl cannot tell me anything different?
It just compounds my feelings more, that ppl follow religon and dont even know why.

Well I know why, its because of fear of the afterlife, its the guilt trip theory. everything else can be removed using a simplistic anotation.
If your prepared to live your life by a set of rules, id want to be able to defend my life against such simplicities, and if you cant, I think thats scary. or maybe religon is evil, and its taken over your mind, muhahahaha.....

seriously tho, when u list what religon does for ppl, i can do it all without religon.
then u list what religon does wrong, and I dont do any of that.
religon seems pointless.
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:00 pm

Professor Smooth wrote:Your religion is a farce. A laughable relic of a time when people thought the world was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, and that women were simply deformed men who were created to be completely subserviant to men.


Ahahaha, no, you've got it wrong. In my leaflet Why you can trust the Bible, it says in Isiah 40:22 "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth..." - using the word "circle", which proves that the writers of the Bible knew the earth was round.

And not just the shape the horizon makes or anything like that, obviously...

Bouncelot wrote:Because scholars seem to think that Matthew was tracing Joseph's family tree and Luke was tracing Mary's.

Yet Luke never mentions Mary, instead he mentions Joseph. :eyebrow: Or is "Mary" written there in some special invisible ink only Christians can see? If they are different family trees, how come they diverge at David, then converge at Shealtiel and Zerubbabel and then diverge again?

Honestly, you can believe what you like, but this stuff doesn't hold up to even the slightest scrutiny.

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Post by Best First » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:15 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
Besty wrote:yet followed through on a milleniums worth of Christan anti-semitism...


Anti-Semitism is utterly incompatible with Christianity. Christianity started out as a Jewish sect. Jesus (you know, that guy Christians worship) was a Jew, as were the Apostles.


no shinola sherlock

The Bible (including the New Testament), if anything, tends to put the Jews above ofther ethnic groups, not below.The European history of anti-semitism happened in spite of Christianity, not because of it.


sorry, but that is one of the most historicaly naive things i have ever read. It was only last century that the Jews were 'absolved' of killing Jesus by the Papcay for fun's sake. Ah, yes, the church is always bigging up the Jews.

Jews were massivley perescuted by Christian's in Europe for the entirity of the last millenia, with little or no objection and often the full support of the Church. Anti-semitism was enshrined is state law (that would be the same state that had such strong ties to teh church) in many countries - for example the limited professions that Jews were allowed to do (due to their... oh look, non Christian status) which is where the stereotype of the money lender came from - Christian's were not allowed to lend money as usuary was a sin, so it became one of the few professions that Jew's were allowed to do, but with the sinful stigma still attached. So you see how religion here plays a devisive role and fuels prejudice.

There are numerous oher incidents, accusations of Blood Libel, the propogation of the belief in the Protocols of the eldars of zion, massacres (such as Cliffords Tower in York) and explusions, non of which happend 'in spite of Christianity'. To state otherwise is kidding yourself.

Additionally the fact that Christianity has judaic origins means it is 'incompatible' with anti-semitism is, sorry, idiotic. If anything, given the nature of group identity, it is not suprising at all that Chrisianity rapidly attempted to distance itself from Judiasm.

Mark, if you don't bother to consider your statements all you are doing is giving people who disagree with you ammunition to keep doing that and if anything help them consolidate their position in their minds. So the question is do you want to chnage things or just rant, because if its the former statemets like 'religion is the root of all evil' are of little use.
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:22 pm

Paul - Sorry but I dont agree, I think the fact no one can tell me im wrong is even more laughable, like i was just saying, if you follow somthing, at least be able to defend it.

Religon, the root of all evil, prove me wrong?

I can say its killed more ppl then anything else on earth ever.
I can say that for all the good it suspposedly does, I can do that without religon.
so when u devide those two things your left with somthing that only kills, root of all evil!

Drips with sarcasm I know, but then religon drips with stupidity, so...
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Post by Best First » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:33 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Paul - Sorry but I dont agree, I think the fact no one can tell me im wrong is even more laughable, like i was just saying, if you follow somthing, at least be able to defend it.

Religon, the root of all evil, prove me wrong?



root of ALL evil suggest that religion is reposnible for ALL bad things.

i am not religious.

i once cheated on a girl

done.

If you care about a cause (which you seem to) you should make a decent case for it, if you are going to make easily refutable statements all you are doing is making life more difficult for thsoe who geniunely want to try and progress the debate as it gives those who disgaree with you something to focus on.
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:51 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I can say its killed more ppl then anything else on earth ever.

Sorry Mark, that one goes to the humble mosquito, which by spreading malaria has officially killed more people than anything else ever. Now, if you were to say "has caused more people to kill each other than anything else ever" you'd be on firmer ground.

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Post by Bouncelot » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:14 pm

Professor Smooth wrote:Your religion is a farce. A laughable relic of a time when people thought the world was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, and that women were simply deformed men who were created to be completely subserviant to men. The fact that so many people, at least, claim to believe it is all the proof I need that the majority of people are ignorant beyond comprehension and deserving of whatever those who choose to take advantage of that ignorance decide.


Ah, nothing like prejudice, is there? :roll:

Abortion is not murder.


Hm, premeditated killing of a human being who hasn't been born yet isn't premeditated killing of a human being?

Homosexuality does not hurt anybody.


Did I say that it did? Even believing that it is a sin for two people of the same gender to have sexual relations doesn't necessarily mean believing that homosexuality is inherently hurtful.

Condoms do not promote pre-marital sex.


What's that statement got to do with the price of fish?

Dinosaurs were not made up to discredit The Bible.


Not even creationists believe that.

God has never told any leader of any group to perform a violent act that did not directly benefit said leader.


God has only told anybody to commit violent acts on extremely rare occasions. And what part of "turn the other cheek" don't you understand?

It's crap. The Bible is nothing more than a record of what we think that people thought thousands of years ago.


A shame you haven't presented anything to back up this assertion that religion in general or Christianity in particular is "crap".

Get over it. If you choose to continue following the crap that has been fed down your throat, you choose ignorance. You're not only harming yourself, but the combined might of your ignorant masses are harming everybody else. So stop. Stop harming the rest of us.


:roll: Ranting does not an argument make.

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Post by Bouncelot » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:41 pm

Sorry for the double post, but I thought the discussion needed it a bit.

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:simple mate - I dont need a church or religon to do what your doing. nor do many charitys or other organisations the world over.


Ah, dismiss the fact that Christians specifically do charitable acts because of their religious beliefs. If it hadn't been for the Christian beliefs of William WIlberforce, the British Empire might never have abolished first the slave trade and then slavery itself. If it hadn't been for the Christian beliefs of Martin Luther King, the American Civil Rights movement would have lost their greatest spokesman. Without his influence, the struggle for equality might have degenerated into violence and taken extra decades. If it hadn't been for a charity calledChristian Aid, the campaign to abolish unpayable "Third World" debt might never have happened and, if it had, would have begun much later and had much less impact. Deny it all you like, but it is a fact that religion motivates people into selfless actions on behalf of the poor and needy.

Yet, by simply going to church (to support your religon) you support religon, and thus, death.


Right. :roll: All religion equals death. :roll: That's the equivalent of saying that because you're an atheist, you support Stalin's purges - which were motivated by an atheistic ideology. Can we have at least a tiny piece of perspective in this thread? Please?

Your right, its simplistic. I find it scary that I can decalre religon evil, provide a concept that religon kills, remove any sense of good by also declaring that there ppl do alot of good in the world without religon. And then I find that religous ppl cannot tell me anything different?


Well, I could declare atheism evil, provide a concept that atheism kills (Stalin, Mao, any convicted murderer who happens to be an atheist...), remove any sense of good in atheism by pointing out that religion motivates people to do good. Would I find any atheists who could tell me any different?

It just compounds my feelings more, that ppl follow religon and dont even know why.


Um, have you ever asked religious people why the follow their particular religion? There are atheists who don't know why they are atheists. I remember once talking to an atheist whose reason for atheism boiled down to a single negative experience of religion when she was younger.

Well I know why, its because of fear of the afterlife, its the guilt trip theory. everything else can be removed using a simplistic anotation.


Yeah, right. Let's just make a blanket statement about the motivation of about 85% of the population of this planet. My main reason for belng a Christian is that the sum total of my study and experience is that it's true. Not because of some guilt trip or fear of hell.

If your prepared to live your life by a set of rules, id want to be able to defend my life against such simplicities, and if you cant, I think thats scary. or maybe religon is evil, and its taken over your mind, muhahahaha.....


Ah, but Christianity isn't about a set of rules. It's about relationship with God. According to the Bible it's impossible to get into heaven by following the rules - hence the crucifixion and resurrection - God providing a way round that for anyone who wants it.

seriously tho, when u list what religon does for ppl, i can do it all without religon.


Hm, let's just list one thing. This summer, there was a Christian youth conference in Nottingham when a girl was miraculously healed of a wierd allergy to certain proteins found in fruit. The doctors had given her something to inject if she came into contact with this protein that would keep her alive for ten minutes - hopefully long enough to get her to hospital where they could give her some better treatment. Yet after being prayed for, she was able to eat fruit without any harm coming to her. Can you do that? Thought not.

then u list what religon does wrong, and I dont do any of that.
religon seems pointless.


Well your main gripe against religion seems to be the claim that it makes people kill other people, and I don't do that. Guess we're even.

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Post by Denyer » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:55 pm

Bouncelot wrote:Not even creationists believe that.


Sadly this is not true in all too many cases.

Smooth, I know Bill's dead, but he was a little sharper with the rants and wasn't generally addressing a specific individual. As I've recently been reminded, not all opinions -- however genuinely held -- actually get through in the way we'd hope.

I don't go as far as Dawkins or a few others... I don't think it really matters why people try to benefit society, more that they do. I do acknowledge that transferrence onto figments can be very dangerous, and can't think of a major world religion off the top of my head that doesn't tack "we're the only ones that get it right" onto the end of stuff (which, in itself, creates more division in a community.)

I'm also not sure that criticising people for having an imaginary friend who's responsible for everything can be termed prejudice -- it's certainly closer to objectivity than the behaviour criticised.

There are still possibly ways to work together on areas of agreement.

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Post by Bouncelot » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:01 pm

Best First wrote:[quote=Bouncelot]The Bible (including the New Testament), if anything, tends to put the Jews above ofther ethnic groups, not below.The European history of anti-semitism happened in spite of Christianity, not because of it.


sorry, but that is one of the most historicaly naive things i have ever read. It was only last century that the Jews were 'absolved' of killing Jesus by the Papcay for fun's sake. Ah, yes, the church is always bigging up the Jews.[/quote]

Saying that anti-Semitism is incompatible with Christianity is most certainly NOT naive. Anti-Semitism is contradicted by every single thing that the Bible says about the Jews. It is a belief that simply doesn't fit with Christianity on any level. History doesn't come into it.

Jews were massivley perescuted by Christian's in Europe for the entirity of the last millenia, with little or no objection and often the full support of the Church. Anti-semitism was enshrined is state law (that would be the same state that had such strong ties to teh church) in many countries - for example the limited professions that Jews were allowed to do (due to their... oh look, non Christian status) which is where the stereotype of the money lender came from - Christian's were not allowed to lend money as usuary was a sin, so it became one of the few professions that Jew's were allowed to do, but with the sinful stigma still attached. So you see how religion here plays a devisive role and fuels prejudice.


Of course, I am extremely sceptical about just how Christian medieval Europe - including the Roman Catholic Church of that era. The average European had very little idea about what Christianity meant. The Catholic Church of that era was corrupt and didn't really convey the teachings of Christ. I'll give you the ursury thing as something imposed by the Church (though it's not necessarily native to Christianity). But the Jews would have been a very distinctive (and different) group within European society at the time regardless of what religious path was taken. Their role in society was like that of Asylum Seekers and illegal immigrants today - taking the jobs nobody else wants (but which need to be done) whilst becoming society's hate figures. Yes, we've got exactly the same prejudicial attitude (albeit directed at a different group) in today's secular society as you're blaming on religion in a previous era. Yes, it took a more extreme form at certain times and places - but if the BNP or the National Front thought they could get away with lynching a few Asylum seekers occasionally, the chances are that they'd do it.

There are numerous oher incidents, accusations of Blood Libel, the propogation of the belief in the Protocols of the eldars of zion, massacres (such as Cliffords Tower in York) and explusions, non of which happend 'in spite of Christianity'. To state otherwise is kidding yourself.


Sorry, but I fail to see why things that are utterly against even the most elementary of Christian teachings can be described as "Christian".

Additionally the fact that Christianity has judaic origins means it is 'incompatible' with anti-semitism is, sorry, idiotic. If anything, given the nature of group identity, it is not suprising at all that Chrisianity rapidly attempted to distance itself from Judiasm.


Two religious groups distancing themselves from each other (as Christianity and Judaism did in the first few centuries AD) doesn't mean that there will be prejudice or persecution from one group onto another.

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Post by Denyer » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:07 pm

Bouncelot wrote:it is a fact that religion motivates people into selfless actions


If they're motivated by something, the actions aren't selfless -- whether done for personal satisfaction, eternal reward or whatever else.

Bouncelot wrote:I could declare atheism evil


It'd help in terms of not getting laughed out of the discussion to define what you mean by atheism, first.

Finding people who take a "God told me to do it" line in court is rather easier than coming up with examples of "there can be no god, therefore I must kill".

Mind, it'd help to define evil as well, for which I suggest everyone makes a nice cup of cocoa first.

Bouncelot wrote:have you ever asked religious people why the follow their particular religion?


Fear seems to figure rather highly, although it's more often phrased as "well, if it isn't true..."

Saddeningly few seem to equate belief with love or unconditional regard for a creator. It tends to be more the traditional "love me or else" deity that gets preached.

Bouncelot wrote:Can you do that?


Nor can they, in all evidence. It's quite amazing what the human brain can do for itself, though -- for example, you can provoke a morphine overdose without actually giving a patient morphine.

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Post by Scraplet » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:29 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
..... a girl was miraculously healed of a wierd allergy to certain proteins found in fruit. The doctors had given her something to inject if she came into contact with this protein that would keep her alive for ten minutes - hopefully long enough to get her to hospital where they could give her some better treatment. Yet after being prayed for, she was able to eat fruit without any harm coming to her.


:eyebrow:
The human body is capable of many 'miraculous' things that can't neccesarily be explained by doctors. Biochemistry, genetics, our environment; all interact in ways so complex that defy prediction. I don't think we can sensibly point to divine intervention just because a doctor got it wrong. Especially with allergies. We don't really have full understanding of what an allergy is.

I'm allergic to everything (well, not everything), and I've developed new allergies and lost others over the years. Doctors tend to just shrug and say thats the way it goes......

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