Pat Lee's best ever drawing of Optimus Prime

Thread originally posted by Best First

Posted by Best First on 11-07-2003 at 04:48 AM:
 
Posted by impactor returns on 11-07-2003 at 06:07 AM:
I like this style alot, it might not be abything like a TF or the correct feel or anything, but i understand it, so it must be right.
if u dont like it you must be mad, or not listening.
 
Posted by Brendocon on 11-07-2003 at 07:44 AM:
It is art like this that makes me glad to be a Transfan. It enhances the story in a way that Andy Wildman never managed, and is proof that Dreamwave are the saviours of mankind.
 
Posted by spiderfrommars on 11-07-2003 at 08:22 AM:
I can't believe no-one has mentioned Prime's face yet. The clarity of expression is wondrous, as is the composition as a whole. I'm looking forward to seeing more.
 
Posted by Metal Vendetta on 11-07-2003 at 08:48 AM:
He's almost got Prime's chest right, too. None of those white borders to the windows, now if he can just remember how many windows there should be we will be laughing.
 
Posted by Best First on 11-07-2003 at 09:02 AM:


and the action packed clash you have all been waiting for!

 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-07-2003 at 09:18 AM:
*wipes the tears from my eyes* Damn that has to be one of the funniest things I've seen here in G1/G2. You da man Besty.
 
Posted by Brendocon on 11-07-2003 at 09:35 AM:
The rendition of Megatron is awe-inspiring. It truly shows what a superb villain the character is, and why every toyline designed after 1984 was doomed to failure.
 
Posted by Best First on 11-07-2003 at 09:51 AM:
The irony is that pat lee's best drawing ever of Op is really in my sig. Oh the hypocrisy...

hey! that icon looks just like Primes face!
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-07-2003 at 10:10 AM:
In terms of detail and getting the head right that was his best, though the one one in the Wizard preview issue, with everyone fightin up over cybertron with Prime and Megatron from and centre was awsome, on eof the best Megatron pics I'd seen and the Prime was pretty sweet too. Got so excited... Then the comic shat on my dreams.
 
Posted by Computron on 11-07-2003 at 12:05 PM:
 
Posted by Metal Vendetta on 11-07-2003 at 12:47 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Best First:
hey! that icon looks just like Primes face!
The sad thing is it's taken me all day to get what you were talking about...
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-07-2003 at 12:53 PM:
kick ass!

esp. rob's comment- "If he could just remember how many windows there should be we'll be laughing..."

 
Posted by spiderfrommars on 11-07-2003 at 01:24 PM:
That action shot is the best BF, it really gives the impression of fluid movement and motion.

Hopefully it'll be available in poster form soon.
 
Posted by snarl on 11-07-2003 at 02:30 PM:
Most excellent, but I must say this: You are all bullying the new boy and should be ashamed!

Pat Lee is certainly good at certain things... I guess he just likes to take his time though.
 
Posted by Hound on 11-07-2003 at 02:30 PM:
That is the funniest thing I have seen in a long time.

I havent laughed so hard in weeks

Thankyou
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-07-2003 at 03:02 PM:
no offence or anything, but yall wondered why; when I first singed on here, and read a few posts by BF and Cliffjumper, why I thought I had stepped into drooling fanboy central.

I love it when the fanboys answer thier own questions, but dont realize it.

I can see how some who dont like pat lees stuff would be amused, and various parties should not be offended by this post just for being somewhat amused, but this thread is a utterly pathetic and clear declaration of: "we're total fanboys, and we're proud of it".

I dont typicaly do flame posts like this one, but it just had to be said. a big and obvious target I typically ignore. A big and obvious target thats dancing on my front yard to a britney spears song, like this one, just needs to be given a viking funeral before and during Its death.

and yall complain that I am patronizing every now and then, isnt any wonder with lame jokes like this? Wonder no further fanboys, youve just made my point for me. and far more savagely then I could ever have put it.

Erm, thank you, good night everybody
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-07-2003 at 03:07 PM:
afterall, anything other than thinking he's great is 'being a fanboy', right?

the irony...
 
Posted by impactor returns on 11-07-2003 at 03:07 PM:
and look, heres the much discussed 'manga' style!
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-07-2003 at 03:12 PM:
quote:
afterall, anything other than thinking he's great is 'being a fanboy', right?
Nope, foolishness like starting this thread is proof of being a fanboy. Lets try to cut the personal attacks down a bit, Im trying to be civil, but I do have my patiance does have a limit
 
Posted by The Last Autobot on 11-07-2003 at 03:15 PM:
AAAA dont take it too seriously is just a joke!!! The problem when someone likes something (duhh) too much is that you start considering it like dogma or religion, and believe me, it has happened to me. Every time I buy a new tf (and i got 171) and take it to the faculty, some people look me funny.

Take it easy...
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-07-2003 at 03:39 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
Nope, foolishness like starting this thread is proof of being a fanboy. Lets try to cut the personal attacks down a bit, Im trying to be civil, but I do have my patiance does have a limit
sorry chief, but I seem to recall your first post was more of a personal attack than what I wrote.

People can dislike Pat Lee's work, it doesn't make them fanboys.
 
Posted by impactor returns on 11-07-2003 at 04:11 PM:
yes how can a dislike of somthing, be considered a 'fanboy' reaction to somthing?
 
Posted by Computron on 11-07-2003 at 04:19 PM:
Impy, that pic is class!

Ishin - Us fanboys? Good heavens. I suppose Roger Ebert is a fanboy cause he reviews films.
 
Posted by Primordium on 11-07-2003 at 04:37 PM:
...I still don't understand the definition of a 'fanboy'.
 
Posted by impactor returns on 11-07-2003 at 04:49 PM:
Fanboy; One who defends somthing beyond logical reason.
See Ishin_ookami

Booyaka
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-07-2003 at 05:14 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by impactor returns:
Fanboy; One who defends somthing beyond logical reason.
See Ishin_ookami

Booyaka


natch!
 
Posted by Best First on 11-07-2003 at 05:31 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
no offence or anything, but yall wondered why; when I first singed on here, and read a few posts by BF and Cliffjumper, why I thought I had stepped into drooling fanboy central.

I love it when the fanboys answer thier own questions, but dont realize it.

I can see how some who dont like pat lees stuff would be amused, and various parties should not be offended by this post just for being somewhat amused, but this thread is a utterly pathetic and clear declaration of: "we're total fanboys, and we're proud of it".

I dont typicaly do flame posts like this one, but it just had to be said. a big and obvious target I typically ignore. A big and obvious target thats dancing on my front yard to a britney spears song, like this one, just needs to be given a viking funeral before and during Its death.

and yall complain that I am patronizing every now and then, isnt any wonder with lame jokes like this? Wonder no further fanboys, youve just made my point for me. and far more savagely then I could ever have put it.

Erm, thank you, good night everybody

Its a joke you utter nonce.

This is not a serious post.

This is not a real opinion.

This is a piss take.

Jesus.

Your lack of ability to take a step back and see that marks you out as exactly what you criticse.

The Megs is worryingly accurate tho...
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-07-2003 at 05:53 PM:
quote:
The Megs is worryingly accurate tho...
even down to his ickle weeny cannon...
 
Posted by Brendocon on 11-07-2003 at 06:04 PM:
How the **** does saying "I don't think X is any good" make somebody a fanboy? That defies all logic.
 
Posted by Best First on 11-07-2003 at 06:54 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Brendocon:
How the **** does saying "I don't think X is any good" make somebody a fanboy? That defies all logic.
I didn't even say that - i have acknwledged he draws great posters and covers, i even compliment him in this topic - the guy just can't tell a story with his art.

Marvel at my unbalanced opinion.
 
Posted by Humorous Conclusion on 11-07-2003 at 07:03 PM:
Fanboy seems to be a fairly meaningless insult, like 'politically correct', bandied about buy people with no decent argument. It seems the best definition of 'Fanboy' is 'person who disagrees with me and whose opinion makes me angry, in psite of the fact that there's no earthly reason why they should agree with me.'

If someone would like to explain to me exactly what I've been missing in pat Lee's artwork that demonstrates its genius they should feel free. But so far the arguments haven't been any better than the parody arguments at the top of this post. Saying Prime looks great actually doesn't make it the case. Nor does repeating the phrase ad nauseum while explaining to everyone, in patronising tones, that they don't understand.
 
Posted by Rebis on 11-07-2003 at 07:03 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Best First:
The Megs is worryingly accurate tho...
Except for the colour of his bucket.
 
Posted by Air Raid on 11-07-2003 at 07:51 PM:
Ishin has mentioned that he lives about 20 minutes from Dreamwave's office.
Maybe it's Pat Lee in disguise.
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-07-2003 at 08:53 PM:
Well, Ive described what I like about his work, what is so unique and impactful. I cannot make anyone see my way, nor do I want to. I was asked why I like pat lee, and when I was failed to be converted by BFand others on a seperate thread, I was accused of being a tf newbie. When that didnt work, this post was created. Which really does show a lack of maturity and respect for others opinions.

Ive never really flamed anyone for liking budiansky, even though you cant deny it was his mission after issue 30 or so to totally destroy the TF comic, despite how much I have loathed most of his writing. The worst Ive said is to look honestly at how he was apparently working hard to either kill the book, or get himself kicked off it by the later issues. They arent quite Keven J anderson style awful, but they were still pretty painful to read for me. I asked compy if he really wanted him to be back on TF's, after compy mentioned how he would be favorable to Pat Lee, or sarracini, and accused him of being insane, if you took offence to that compy, gomeno-sai compy-kun

Nor have I made threads mocking those that defend Budiansky by mentioning the good things he added to TF's, which I long ago acquesced that he did. So, BF and any others who may think Im Pat lee in disguise, or two thirds insane for liking him, if your willing to call a truce on this, I am. No more fanboy taunts from myself, and my words are not twisted around and threads like this to insult my complements of Pat Lee's style dont happen again. I can take a joke, but twisting ones words around like this is just plain childish and disrespectful.

And anyone else, fine you dont like pat lee, kae sara sara. Fine you like him; Sugoi. But lets try to respect those whose opinons differ from our own, espescially on something like art. Now If I was advicating we all listen to backstreet boys, or buy the new Britney spears album, then that would be apparent proof of my insanity and you all have full written permission to gun me down should I even joke about doing such things. But when it comes to art, is it so shocking to hear that someone actually likes a style of art that doesnt appeal to you?!?! WHY?!?

Ah well, no hard feeling's on my part gentlemen, and any ladies either (do women even READ TF's?)

Thank you, and erm, G'night
 
Posted by Humorous Conclusion on 11-07-2003 at 09:14 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Ive never really flamed anyone for liking budiansky, even though you cant deny it was his mission after issue 30 or so to totally destroy the TF comic, despite how much I have loathed most of his writing. The worst Ive said is to look honestly at how he was apparently working hard to either kill the book, or get himself kicked off it by the later issues.
I don't know how you could assemble those two sentences without irony. You claim not have patronised/insulted/falmed Budiansky fans, yet yoy continue to write about hims with disdain, proclaiming as self-evidemnt fact that he wanted to destroy the Transformer comic. You really are in no poistion to take the moral high ground. The fact that you never said to anybody's face 'Your an idiot and so is Budiansky' is irrelevent when you continue to continue to refer to people in such a casually rude and disrespectful manner.

quote:
Well, Ive described what I like about his work, what is so unique and impactful. I cannot make anyone see my way, nor do I want to
So you've said, but all I remember is a particularly long winded post about how Lee's style has a different origin and what a debt he owes to Gundam Wing. As well as an unsubstantiated claim that Transfandom would be better off if we all support Dreamwave.

Frankly I fail to see anything about Lee's work that has a 'unique' impact. To a large extent his style is the Dreamwave style, and he is the least able exponent of the form. What can he actually do that is not as well or better by Don Figuera (sp?), Guido Guidi, Jame Raiz or most of the artists illustrating more than meets the eye?
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-07-2003 at 10:14 PM:
quote:
Frankly I fail to see anything about Lee's work that has a 'unique' impact. To a large extent his style is the Dreamwave style, and he is the least able exponent of the form. What can he actually do that is not as well or better by Don Figuera (sp?), Guido Guidi, Jame Raiz or most of the artists illustrating more than meets the eye?
Ive already stated that in the budiansky loving thread, go there and read, then come back, or just reply there.

As for my comments about budiansky. Look, lets put 2+2 together shall we? many people on this forum have freely stated themselves that budiansky later half of the TF run was mediocre at best, that he was angry at hasbro forcing him to introduce new teams nearly every issue. Correct? YES correct.

He was angry, he hated the book, he purposely wrote substandard stories. He himself has testified to this, not unlike Shannon Dhoerthy's throwing tauntrums on the Set of 90210 during the later days of her time on the show.

You following me so far, because I really think your missing something here HC, and its really hard for me not to make fanboy comments, when you cant even mention the weaknesses in your own argument. you can mention yourself that he wrote bad stuff due to his discontentment, but are angry when someone flat out calls him a bad writer? the man admitted himself he was angry, discontent, and wrote substandard stories purposely. I dont recall hearing anything of his reasoning, but you dont need to be psychic or consult your bloody tarot cards to do the math. And because of his immaturity (im sorry, I cant respect a man that doesnt take pride in his work) the original TF comic was always 2 issues away from cancellation despite furmans best efforts.

We all on the same page still, you still following my logic, because Ive made the case clear and bright as day. dont agree with me if you want, and dont admit Im right if you dont think I am. But for crying out loud, your defending a guy that he himself admits he wrote crap! I dont give a rattraps Ass of his reasoning, If a man cant take pride in his work, then what pride DOES he have? He made the wrong choice, and threw feces that he pulled out of his colon, and flung it at the fans and called it stories. Please, try to defend horrors like Carwash of doom, afterdeath, fort max as a whimp, roadjammers, mechannibles, king con, minibot wrestling, and others. Plese, defend it on its own merits, not on how much you despise Pat lee, chris Sarracini, brad mick, or others. On ITS OWN! go ahead. I dare ya!

The man wrote CRAP! on purpose, and you ask how I can continue to bash him? how I can continue to have contempt for him? how I never want to see his name on another comic or story that I read again? the explanation is obvious. Say what you will bout Pat lee, but the man worked damn hard to get the TF liscense, and works even harder on various issues. and other comics, he gives it his all, and that deserves to be respected. you dont have to agree with me, and if you like budiansky, enjoy him, knock yourself out friend. But there was a darn good reason Titan took nearly two years to even dare to release the budiansky era graphic novels, because they were worried they wouldnt sell.

I for one see him as little more then TF's resident wild child that couldnt get his own way, and threw a tauntrum. Dont try to change peoples minds. If Im wrong, missed a crucial fact or interview, or there was decent storytelling subliminally hidden beneath all the crap that occured after headmasters, feel free to point it out. But just because you may think he was the dogs danglies straight through #6-55, doesnt mean Im maliciously attacking any one who disagrees with me. I have nothing but respect for my fellow transfans here, even when they disagree or make posts that try to insult me or those I respect. But for someone like budiansky, I have no respect at all, maybe hes redeemed himself over the years. Maybe DW will ask him to write a comic for all the fans that miss him... I wouldnt hold my breath though. Wildman was brought back because he was a fan favorite, definately a favorite of mine. He himself thought he couldnt measure up to Pat lees standard. And even Even Titan was scared that budiansky's stories wouldnt sell in graphic novel format to the fanboys out there (theres a difference between fan, and fanboy, so noone here take offence to that statement please, unless you yourself think of yourself as a fanboy) that says something, it says Budiansky is very much a black sheep amongst alot of Transfans. I am curious to really see if he would be able to write a good book on his own, without any style guides or someone watching over his shoulder... but when he writes ratchet learing about fire from a group of camping coed's in #7, I sorta doubt it.

*today on Sessame Street, Ratchet learns about fire and roasting weenies. and on tomarrows show, Bluestreak inquires about the birds and bees before bumblebee has to tell him to shut the F*** up!*

Roast Sarracini or mick as much as you want, but for the love of god, at least admit they can do better then THAT! I dont care what damned style guides Budiansky was writing under, when he writes the bots THAT braindead Im surprised hes still writing today. Is he? Id like to see if hes actually gotten better over the years... there is such a thing as redemption.
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-07-2003 at 10:53 PM:
Uh, as far as I can tell none of us here are huge fans of Bob. I consider the fact that he threw a tantrum to be highly immature and disrespectful to the fans. No I haven't bought any Budiansky Trades yet (might have bought the first two except for the fact that the first one has the insanely awful first four issues which Bob did not write) cause with the cash floe I have right now I have better stuff to buy. But Bob does deserve credit and consideration. And while he wrote a lot of crap he could when put to it write cirles around Saraccini who was astonishingly mediocre. Yeah he didn't have any astinishly stupid stuff (save maybe Superion's suicide) but that who volume put me to sleep or offends me with its grey, turgid, off character writing. I'll take wildly inconsistent writng over consistently subpar any day.

But seriously Ishin you need to lighten up. This was a joke thread, such things are fairly common. It wasn't directed at you, but at Pat LEe cause discussion of him has dominated this forum for the last week or more. Most people here think he sucks as a comic artist. That's not a 'fanboy' opinion it a well thought out critical one. We don't hate Lee's stuff cause it's new or not like the old stuff we hate it cause it's poor quality comic art tarted up with computers and fancy inks and made out to be the ****. Liking it is fine but it is poor comic book art as it fails to tell a story is sloppy past G1 vol 1 issue 3 or 4, and has poor composition cause it's cut and paste. I LIKE SOME NEW STUFF LIKE DON FIGUEROA, WE ALL DO. WE JUST DON'T VALUE LEE OR SARACCINI. Sorry to yell but that's what we have been trying to say and you keep saying we're fanboys who don't get it or are closed minded or don't know what we are talking about. I like good art and stroy telling and those two don't cut the mmustard irregarless of whether I like them or not. We haev not gone out of our way to insult you Ishin so chill, some of us have been a little curt and sarcastic as we have gotten tired of hearing the same thing from you. This was good light hearted fun that was not sent in your direction so chill out, and thanks for ruining it. As someone who used to be oversensititive (and still am to some degree) I understand but this was not directed at you. Get over it.
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-08-2003 at 12:52 AM:
Well blacksword, its good to finally hear someone flat out admit the truth about budianski. Ill fight you to the death over sarracini though, I thought he was a great writer. DW advertised this would be a new continuity, so i was prepared for changes to various characters. And I thought the story, while a bit below furmans standards, was still great. but hey.... like I said Im not here to change anyones mind. Just to say what I liked and why I liked it.

As for my needing to lighten up... pardon me if I took this the wrong way, but last night I pointed out what I liked about pat lees art. such as lees usage of motion blurs for action scenes, and praised him for his manga influences, and got accused of being ignorant, and twelve hour later theres this thread up and about, I did take it a bit on the personal side. Nothing really major. But I really did think there was a better way to deal with a disagreement then this.

However, if Im wrong, i apologize to any parties I offeneded tonight.

And maybe I was just vexed bout not seeing any new artwork from pat lee. I like his stuff and wanna see more litographs and such from him. Im a bit disappointed with the DW calender though, sure the art is good, but its still the same stuff i already own in the comics. Ill pass on buying that one, . shame ol pat couldnt find the time to bang out some new artwork for the calender. Hes got a sweet joke litograph going around with blaster and soundwave having a jam at a dance hall, complete with the cassettes either helping em out, or just gettin jiggy on the floor. Too bad the ol G1 ep Auto-bop couldnt have thought to be that witty. Id sooner watch an ep with those two trying to out-mix eachother, rather then trying to brainwash humans with music, bleh :P

Well, thats all. ttyl
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-08-2003 at 02:40 AM:
as an aside, isn't it 'Gomen nasai Compy-kun'?

I'll check in my dictionary a bit later if you're unsure. I'm fairly certain it's 'nasai'.
 
Posted by Best First on 11-08-2003 at 04:57 AM:
This is such a crock. This was never about people blindly defendinf Bob B. As was quite clear from Compy's topic it was about trying to discuss the (relatively few IMO) things he did get right.

You're mature, non insulting, non patronising well thought out initial response?

compy, are you on crack?!?

You set the tone of this debate son, no one else.

As for this topic, it is quite clearly a piss take of the whole discusssion, isn't it? Because i, for example, have quite clearly stated that i think Lee's posters and covers are quite good, haven't i? So to take this as a genuine slant on Pat Lee when i have already stated as such would be a bit stupid and oversensetive wouldn't it? Yes, yes it would.

I will quite happily tear saracinni to 'ittle wittle bits in another thread if you want, because he is, oh the shock of it, not very good. And there is a different between being not very good when you are writing a toy licence for kids and being not very good when you are writing a prestiege nostalgia book. To adopt your tone, i for one think that is a fairly obvious distinction, but maybe that is because i do significantly more reading than you do and understand writing in a way few other people on tha planet earth, which you may be interested to learn is the third planet from the sun in our solar system, do.
 
Posted by spiderfrommars on 11-08-2003 at 05:45 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
but when he writes ratchet learing about fire from a group of camping coed's in #7, I sorta doubt it.

Ratchet was not learning about fire. Ratchet already knew about fire. Ratchet was learning about wood. Guess what? Theres no wood on Cybertron.

One thing Budiansky was interested in was human and Transformer relations (something that Furman largely ignored). If you really think that an ancient mechanoid from another planet has nothing to learn from a bunch of human kids then fine. I disagree though.

Sadly Budiansky got overly keen on the human bias of his stories, but the basic notion - that giant robots on Earth would cause a big stir - is sound.

Sorry, but on another big post by you designed to flame Bob yet again, thats the only bit I can be bothered to take you up on.

Oh, that and agreeing that the Roadjammers were ****ing ****.
 
Posted by Ozz on 11-08-2003 at 06:04 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
shame ol pat couldnt find the time to bang out some new artwork for the calender. Hes got a sweet joke litograph going around with blaster and soundwave having a jam at a dance hall, complete with the cassettes either helping em out, or just gettin jiggy on the floor.
You mean the one with Soundwave and Blaster by mixing-wheels, Ravage holding a vinyl in his mouth, Rewind bringing box of vinyls, Lasrebeak flying with a cable in his beak, and Rumble, Frenzy and Eject having fun with people down on the dance floor (and Frenzy, I mean Rumble has 'Bass' written on his pile-drivers? The one which has Guido Guidi 2002 written in right down corner? I love it!! I have it on my desktop right now.
 
Posted by snarl on 11-08-2003 at 09:02 AM:
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-08-2003 at 11:16 AM:
lol, okay my bad. Its still cool
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-08-2003 at 11:49 AM:
quote:
I will quite happily tear saracinni to 'ittle wittle bits in another thread if you want, because he is, oh the shock of it, not very good. And there is a different between being not very good when you are writing a toy licence for kids and being not very good when you are writing a prestiege nostalgia book
BF, if thats how you get your jollies, then knock yourself out justifying how totally stupid and closed minded you are. Sarracini didnt write a nostalgia book, he wrote a BRAND NEW STORY! one that borrowed continuties, characterizations, and then made up its own. Check out the sales of the TF comic there, for three months it was on top of the sales charts. Budiansky or furman ever manage that? I like furman just fine, in fact Ive studied his writing so I can learn or borrow some of the techniques he uses in his stories, so I can be as good a writer as him. But dang your telling me sarracini and lee could be on top of the sales charts, for three straight months, and it was total crap.... maybe it just wasnt your thing, deal with it!

Okay, lemme point out just what exactly constitutes a person for Fanboy status, so that noone need be insulted when I use that term again, except for those who are fanboys. You ever talk to a person who will flame a certain video game system, just for the sake of it. Some Xbox owners say Playstation sucks, even though Playstations is pooping all over Xbox in terms of sales and quality games. Playstation owners say Xbox sucks, despite the fact that the Xbox is quite clearly the more powerful and versitile system out there right now. Then we have the Pokemon haters, who will never pick up a nintendo system ect ect ect.

This is the most clear cut distinction of a fanboy. a person that bases thier arguments on what they enjoy, believe, and will use or manufacture statistics to substantiate what they want. Then we have the hideous sub-class of fanboys, who collect the love hina, busts, complete with removeable bikini top, and pay through the nose. And purchase ever marvel female bust out there, but that little sub-class Im not even gonna discuss.

Point being that a typical fanboy is thoroughly enamored with thier own opinion, thinking they are truly correct in everything, and supporting utter trash just to justify themselves at times. In the Transfans, this would equate to people swearing the G1 cartoon is the end all and be all of TF continuities, or that furman is nigh unto a god and should be adhered to in all TF continuities. Basically, the two most distinctive qualities of a typical fanboy, are thier closed mindedness, and thourough lack of social graces or respect for anything that would disagree with what they enjoy.

So pardon me BF if judging by your lack of respect for all the sarracini and Pat Lee fans out there, If I have to assume you have a orion Pax tattoo on some unmentionable portion of your anatomy. and please keep it unmentioned. look, you like budiansky, read his graphic novels til your brain turns to jello for all I care, but dont try to tell me he was a good writer, and dont try to flame me or twist my comments around just because you cant stand to be disagreed with. in other words, grow up. Accept the fact that sarracini is far more liked and respected then Budansky ever was and will be. You dont have to agree with em, but it took nearly 20 years for budiansky to get a TF graphic novel of his short story, which occured during a nostalgia fad, and was done tentively by Titan. Sarracini's was printed and ready for distribution before the last issue of TF vol. 1 hit the stands. Says something bout the demand and success of his writing, doesnt it. And when Wildman, Senior, delbo, or even the G2 artists can publish thier own calanders, maybe then you can tell me that Pat Lee is a hack who doesnt deserve to pencil a comic. You dont like it, you dont have to. Gouge yer eyes out if you dont wanna acknowledge pat lees success, But at least hes worked damn hard for it. Harder then alot of people out there that are popular, or famous, have worked for thiers.

lol, I apologize if Im bugging anyone, spidey, were cool, compy, cosmo, snarl, yall is da bomb. but BF, Im just basically twisting the knife in ya. Go ahead, make all the flame posts you want, make a website dedicated to flaming em, MAKE 500 for all I care. But you cant change the fact that sarracini and Pat lee are far more respected, appreciated, and enjoyed then budiansky ever hoped to be on his most idealistic days. and the next time you visit your comic shop, ask em how the G1 Vol 1 graphic novel is selling compared to budiansky or even furmans TF Grpahic novels. muahhahahahaha
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-08-2003 at 12:40 PM:
now see problem 1. besty hasn't actually flamed you

problem 2. bestys entitled to his opinion just as much as you are to yours, it doesn't make him wrong.

problem 3. IF he bothers to respond he'll point all this out and more.

problem 4. you may well get a warning from it.

hows about we all just live and let live and stop threatening each other with daft insults and generalisations?
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-08-2003 at 12:45 PM:
See one hug problem with you argument Ishin is that over and overgain you seem to equate sales with quality. Sorry to put it this way but that is utter stupidity. By that Logic Britney Spears and the Backstreet boys are the greatest musical artists of all time. Or that Jurassic PArk is one of the greatest cinematic masterpieces of all time (I like JP but a masterpiece it is not in acting style, directing or anything aside from effects). To think that sales equals qaulity is juevenile to the extreme.

Oh and did you not read the part in BF's post
that went like this:

quote:

As was quite clear from Compy's topic it was about trying to discuss the (relatively few IMO) things he did get right.

I seriously don't see how you can think BEsty or any of us are Budiansky fan boys. I've said from teh start he wrote a lot of **** and was greatly flawed, yet you only noticed in my last post. I've made a week of posts and it took you all those to see the fact that I think Bob's writing is highly flawed?

I've tried to be diplomatic but you're complete inability to see anything you don't wanna see is pissing me off. Yeah Best First may be a friend of mine but your complete lack of any kind of decency or maturity or even intelligence in your last post just leaves me stunned. You paint the lot of us with a braod brush and accuse us of doing the same, but people here have addressed nearly all of your comments while you have addressed few of ours and told us what we believe based on some twisted reading of posts. I'm just mad no I'm goona stop now before I say anything really unfortunate.

EDIT: No I'm still mad so I'll add some more. Your definition of fanboy seems to make out that we here fabricate evidence cannot distinguish between what we like and what is good or bad. Gee who brought that distinction up first... Oh wait that would be me.

Ishin all I've heard from you is "I like it cause it's good, you're all fanboys cause you don't like it and you don't understand it and you don't like it cause it's Japanese". Aside from a few justifications when pressed you have given no proof for your views and yet you come out with this fanboy definition which based on what's been posted in these threads applies one hell of a lot more to you than anyone else here. You have ignored well though out evidence and apparently consider it all made up fanboy ravings. Thanks for the respect mate.

That's it I'm done.
 
Posted by spiderfrommars on 11-08-2003 at 01:07 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
Check out the sales of the TF comic there, for three months it was on top of the sales charts.
Oh come on mate, now you're being silly. You really think that had nothing to do with it being the first TF comic being released in nearly 10 years?

The Phantom Menace is the second most popular film of all time. How much is that down to it being good, and how much is it due to demand for a long absent product from a devoted fanbase?

quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:

Budiansky or furman ever manage that?

Well hopefully I've already put this in context with my last statement. But regardless, Furman turned Transformers in the most successful Marvel UK comic ever, and Budiansky's initial stint on the US series was massively successful in terms of sales.

quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
But dang your telling me sarracini and lee could be on top of the sales charts, for three straight months, and it was total crap....
Of course its possible. People bought it because it was Transformers, not Saccarini and Lee. Witness the steep drop offs in sales as the series neared its end for evidence of fan indifference too.

quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:

Point being that a typical fanboy is thoroughly enamored with thier own opinion, thinking they are truly correct in everything, and supporting utter trash just to justify themselves at times.

Sorry mate but isn't that what you're doing in the name of Dreamwave?

I see no-one here as this definition except yourself. People have said countless times here that there are many things they enjoy about Dreamwave. No-one is saying old school art is better than new stuff. It is Pat that is being singled out because of his inability to tell a story. How can pointing this out make anybody a fanboy??

quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:

Accept the fact that sarracini is far more liked and respected then Budansky ever was and will be.

Wow. Respect a guy who wrote 6 dismal issues over a man who vertually created all the TF characters we know and love in the first place? I feel very sorry for anyone who whose leanings are towards Saccarini in this matter. Jury's still out on Mick though.

quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
You dont have to agree with em, but it took nearly 20 years for budiansky to get a TF graphic novel of his short story, which occured during a nostalgia fad, and was done tentively by Titan. Sarracini's was printed and ready for distribution before the last issue of TF vol. 1 hit the stands. Says something bout the demand and success of his writing, doesnt it.
Sales rarely are a good barometer of quality. And Budiansky's novels are selling very nicely thankyouverymuch.

Just cause more kids today watch the Texas Chainsaw Massacre or Planet of the Apes remakes makes them better than the originals? No, it just proves that a load of airheads who don't know any better will watch something glossier and prettier than fork out money on an old film.

quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:

And when Wildman, Senior, delbo, or even the G2 artists can publish thier own calanders, maybe then you can tell me that Pat Lee is a hack who doesnt deserve to pencil a comic.

You don't think this has anything to do with the fact that Pat Lee own the company? I'm sure he'll put out as many calenders as he damn well likes. I'm happy to say I don't own any of them though.

A Senior calender? Would be nice I suppose, many of his cover renderings were beautiful. But you could say his strength is visualising an epic sweeping story. Pat's is in drawing nice looking posters.

Which gets me back to the point of Pat's style apparently having more motion just because its blurred? Whatever. Look at Vol 1 issue 3 (where they didn't use this gimmick) and tell me that punch up looks good. It looks static as hell.
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-08-2003 at 01:21 PM:
Um, chill. you may have noted that I said *IF* you like budiansky's writing, or at least if the *if* wasnt there, It was implied. and for the last time, liking budiansky doesnt make one a fanboy. Being closed minded, and attacking others for disagreeing with you does. Like BF did. chill out.

And the main reason I was pointing out the sales figures was for two things, #1, to show that its great to see a Worthy (IMAOO) tf series getting the due respect. #2, to get under Bestys skin, the same way hes apparently trying to get under mine. You know full well im a huge fan of Sarracini's and Pat Lees work. And in all honesty, Its really good work. Dont even try to compare them to Britney spears, whos riding a wave of drooling lechers and idiot schoolgirls with zero self esteem, or films like Jurassic park or mummy returns that just appeal to the average redneck american. Pat Lee and Sarracini Both worked bloody hard, and it genuinely shows. For that alone they deserve respect. And the fact that thier hard work is appreciated and is being rewarded because they've put thier all into the G1 comic is well due to them. That puts them far and above the britney spears and mummy returns of western pop culture. Theyve taken risks, rewrote the TF rulebook, and really put some thought and imagination into the first volume, and various TF series. Unlike Image's GI Joe title which is just working on the template the the cartoon created, and truly is appealing to the lowest common denominator. Rewriting the rulebook and trying new and different concepts requires some serious guts and heart. And I respect it when artists try to do something new and different for the sake of the fans. Unfortunately the majority does not feel that way, otherwise films like the first final fantasy would have been a huge success, DW could have taken the easy road, and wrote for all the furman and/or cartoon fans out there, but they had more integrety then that. Bravo to them I say, and even if you can respect sarracini, because you wernt entertained, Id like to think you could at least respect thier refusal not to market to the lowest denominator out there, and how they at least have some pride as artists. Which is why initially, I found micks work weaker then sarracini's, but now hes incorporating more and more of his own concepts and original ideas. The training wheels are off, and now he seems to be truly coming into his own as aTF writer.

Besides, even if you dont like Lee or sarracini, theres still guidi, figueroa, mick, furman, and jae lee who are on DW's payrole. DW's making bloody sure they reach all the target audiances out there, Smart and savy move on the part of Seinor Lee.

quote:
Sorry mate but isn't that what you're doing in the name of Dreamwave?
No, Im defending good, honest to gosh storytelling and art. I understand you didnt like it spidey, But alot of others have. Does that make us all idiots just because we see sarracini's writing and lees art differently? Its not Lee drew in alot of half naked women, or even one, trying to pull in the older male crowd. or resorted to cheap, stupid gimicks. he honestly worked, hard, did his best, and its well and good that others respect it. I respect those that dont like it. I fully understand thier arguments as well, but it doesnt mean I agree with them. and it doesnt make EITHER of us wrong.

and yes, then there was sarracini's subpar work on armada. Honestly, the whole bloody book just seemed like an afterthought by DW until Furman got his hands on it. I guess hasbro just had to insist the kids be in there, and also must have insisted no new TFs get in the action until they gave the say-so. But in all honesty, for all its flaws, it was heaps better then the show. Now that furmans in there writing, its gotten about say... a duvajillion times better. And Ive even said that sarracini is not anywhere near as good as furman is, but hes still a skilled writer nonetheless, and I thoroughly enjoyed his G1 work. hear that, Ive said it before and Ill say it again, I thoroughly thought his work on armada was adequette AT BEST!! and quite annoying and subpar at worst. Need I say it again before youll get the fact that I am mererly standing behind good storytelling regardless of whos holding the leash?
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-08-2003 at 01:29 PM:
look ishin- i consider besty a good friend and he's having some hard times right now so i think we should get to the bottom of this: where in this post or in this thread has he been closed-minded or attacking you for disagreeing? he was giving you a piece of his mind (he has large amounts to spare) about doing precisely what you're accusing other people of.

now please point out where he's done these things or leave him alone. you're singling him out for no reason other than he made a joke about something you take too seriously to laugh at...

reminded me of someone in the Beast Machines/Wars forum a while back...
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-08-2003 at 01:45 PM:
As I said, correct me if Im wrong karl... maybe Im being a bit to hard on the guy also, I do that sometimes... you dont get to have a nickname like Ishin_ookami (it means proud wolf in japanese) by being a meek pussycat all yer life.

okay, like I said earlier... in budiansky loving thread, I was asked what I liked about Pat Lee, I made mention the mostion blurs, the awesome manga design, basiclaly its all there for you to see.... then less then 12 hours later, this thread is up, making knocks on the same comments I put up, manga style, motion blur effects during fight scenes, ect. I found it to be a more then jsut a bit juvenile, like I said. If it had appeared earlier, or didnt quite so mock the very commments I made about liking pat lee, i would have snickered right along with the rest of you, But BF was one of those who vehemently thought I was so totally out in left field, so I put 2+2 together. Then he made another threat bout flaming saracini if Id like him to, that mroe or less sinched the deal that this was more of a thread he made to flame my comments, and less of a thread to flame pat lee.

If Im wrong, which I have been before believe me, I already stated and offered an apology and an offer of a truce, its still open. If im not wrong, well I got better things to do with my time then to waste it on perpetual and never ending arguments, so the offer of a cease fire is still there.

BTW, if I have indeed come in, with my usual less then sublte, and em in the teeth style that Im pretty much reknowned for, and rubbed besty the wrong way during a difficult time in his life, well then I again, offer my condolances and my sincere regret for my error.
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-08-2003 at 01:49 PM:
from what i can see from the first 2 posts of the budianski thread you seemed to bring it on yourself by coming in so strongly with your opinions. if you're going to draw that much attention to what you think, and use it to hit another person's opinions on the head with by generalising what theyve said, then im afraid youve got to be prepared for some rather sharp replies.
 
Posted by Best First on 11-08-2003 at 03:08 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
BF, if thats how you get your jollies, then knock yourself out justifying how totally stupid and closed minded you are.

I'm totally stupid and closed minded for not liking something? Interesting. You are the same person that keeps accusing everyone else of flaming aren't you?
Do you even know what closed minded means? You have accused pretty much everyone here of it at some point in the last few days, but your definition of it seems to be no more that 'you don't agree with my opinion'.

If I saw you calling anyone else here 'totally stupid' for having an opinion I would probably put you on a temp ban, but seeing as I’m a big boy ill struggle on and get over it.

Sarracini didnt write a nostalgia book, he wrote a BRAND NEW STORY!

Based on an eighties property that has once again gained momentum due to the people who liked it as children growing to adult hood and looking back on said property with enough fondness, i.e nostalgia, to make it popular again. The fact that Chris S wrote a 'new' story is entirely separate to the fact this is a nostalgia property. To suggest that it is not is just absurd.

Check out the sales of the TF comic there, for three months it was on top of the sales charts. Budiansky or furman ever manage that?

Yes. Furman turned TF UK into the second best selling comic in the UK (beaten only by the of The Galaxy's Greatest Comic)

I like furman just fine, in fact Ive studied his writing so I can learn or borrow some of the techniques he uses in his stories, so I can be as good a writer as him. But dang your telling me sarracini and lee could be on top of the sales charts, for three straight months, and it was total crap.... maybe it just wasnt your thing, deal with it!

I can deal with it, I can also discuss and dissect why it wasn't my thing.

As I think has already been pointed out;

1) To judge something by the amount it sells or the revenue it generates is about as banal indicator of quality as can be found. By this bar you are saying that Titanic is one of the greatest films ever made, that 'Everything I do I do it for you' is one of the greatest songs ever written and that corporate lawyers are the pinnacle of mankind. One thinks not.

2)People who bought the first issue did not , by and large, buy it because of the creative team, but because it was transformers, back in comic book form after almost a decade.

3)The multiple cover's were lapped up by the 'fanboys' you so apparently despise, even tho by virtue of this fact you are also trying to use them to support your argument.

4)And, and this is my favourite bit, they stayed on top for how long? Three months? And the series was how long? 6 issues? So... hmmm, lets apply some tricky maths here, those figures you are presenting rather to support the 'quality' of the book in fact rather suggest that half way through the series a significant number of people stopped buying it, don't they? Boy, you sure showed me. Genius.

Okay, lemme point out just what exactly constitutes a person for Fanboy status, so that noone need be insulted when I use that term again, except for those who are fanboys. You ever talk to a person who will flame a certain video game system, just for the sake of it. Some Xbox owners say Playstation sucks, even though Playstations is pooping all over Xbox in terms of sales and quality games. Playstation owners say Xbox sucks, despite the fact that the Xbox is quite clearly the more powerful and versitile system out there right now. Then we have the Pokemon haters, who will never pick up a nintendo system ect ect ect.

And how am I exemplifying that? Am I saying I hate DW? No. Am I saying I hate the staff of DW? No? Am I saying that DW's collective output is inferior to Bob B's work? No. I am saying, and I will write this nice and big for you in the vain hope it will register (dream on Besters!) that I DON'T LIKE TWO PEOPLES WORK ON A 6 ISSUE COMIC SERIES. So really, trying to apply the above criteria to my stance doesn't work does it?

This is the most clear cut distinction of a fanboy. a person that bases thier arguments on what they enjoy, believe, and will use or manufacture statistics

e.g. "DW was number one in the charts for 3 months!"

to substantiate what they want. Then we have the hideous sub-class of fanboys, who collect the love hina, busts, complete with removeable bikini top, and pay through the nose. And purchase ever marvel female bust out there, but that little sub-class Im not even gonna discuss.

Just for the record, you just did. And also for the record, anyone who fancies Arcee should really really stop it. Like, right now.

Point being that a typical fanboy is thoroughly enamored with thier own opinion,

Hrrm, aren't most people enamored with their own opinion? By virtue of the fact that it's their opinion? This seems to me to be a somewhat bizarre criticism. Are you telling me that you dislike your own opinion?

Maybe you form opinions that you know to be incorrect and as soon as someone challenges you go "Yep! You're right! Got me there! I was totally wrong? But at least I’m not enamoured with my own opinion, huh? Huh? Guys? Guys come back!". Somehow tho, on the strength of the posts you have made thus far, I suspect that is not your approach.

thinking they are truly correct in everything, and supporting utter trash just to justify themselves at times.

Like, to pluck a random example from the ether... Pat Lee's shoddy art in Issue 6 of Dreamwave's first Transformers mini-series? Ok, gotcha.

In the Transfans, this would equate to people swearing the G1 cartoon is the end all and be all of TF continuities, or that furman is nigh unto a god and should be adhered to in all TF continuities.

You mean... people having a favourite!? Those fanboy pigs! Not that Furman's own continuities even match up. Damn! Look at my geeky fanboy knowledge - see me hide my head in shame.

Basically, the two most distinctive qualities of a typical fanboy, are their closed mindedness,

e.g. failing to accept people have the right to slag off DW G1 Vol 1

and thourough lack of social graces

e.g. lecturing someone as if they are a child when they disagree with you

or respect for anything that would disagree with what they enjoy.

e.g. 'Compy are you on crack!?"

So pardon me BF if judging by your lack of respect for all the sarracini and Pat Lee fans out there

And where, prey tell, do I mention them? I notice you have now manufactured some nebulous faceless hordes to back up your individual position. I suggest you show these people respect by not presuming to speak for them, because you only speak for one person, you. And you don't even do that very convincingly. I certainly wouldn't automatically assume for example that anyone else who happened to enjoy DW G1 V1 would be in possession of your amazingly patronising tone when in a debate ("hmm, can't refute point, must list all I know about subject") nor your ingenious ability to sidestep any point that you are unable to counter. Don’t worry, no one has spotted that last one…

I am not talking about the fans of, I am talking about the work of. The fact that I have no respect for you as of your last post is an entirely separate issue.

If I have to assume you have a orion Pax tattoo on some unmentionable portion of your anatomy.

I don't like the cartoon, I find it, for the most part inane and of curiosity value at best. I have already mentioned that I don't like the cartoon in a response to one of your other posts. Do try and read what people are saying before responding, it does tend to help not expose you as clutching at straws and manufacturing points so you can counter them.

look, you like budiansky,

Cough cough;

Twice in the post you are replying too I infer that I don't think Bob is much cop;

Me:
(relatively few IMO) things he did get right



quote:
Me:
being not very good when you are writing a toy licence for kids

Again, it helps if you actually read a post before responding to it.

read his graphic novels til your brain turns to jello for all I care, but dont try to tell me he was a good writer,

I never have, I think he is a mediocre writer at best who had a few high points (notably the return to Cybertron ark and the majority of the early tech-specs). Nowhere have I classed him as good. Again if you are going to call someone totally stupid it helps to pay attention to what they have and have not said rather than attributing them an opinion you can think of a rebuttal for. Altho that said 'don't tell me he is good' wouldn’t be a rebuttal I would pay much attention to if I did hold that opinion. Not sure why, but it just... lacks any content at all.

and dont try to flame me or twist my comments around just because you cant stand to be disagreed with.

Don't flame you? So don't say 'go ahead and prove how totally stupid you are then'? Oh wait... that was you!

Twist your words? Like say claim that you have stated you think Bob B is good, or assume a fanship of the cartoon? Oh wait... that was you!

Can't stand to be disagreed with? As evidenced by my sidestepping valid points and repeating meaningless phrases 'he's good and it just can't be denied!'? Oh wait... that was you.

That. Was. You. See?

You're lack of self awareness is blinding. Even by fanboy standards.

in other words, grow up.

"Go ahead and prove how totally stupid you are!" Whatever you say Mr Maturity...

Accept the fact that sarracini is far more liked and respected then Budansky ever was and will be.

I would, but seeing as how I don't think its true I won't. DW G1 V1 was IMO better than a lot f Bob B's work, but not better than Bob B's best work IMO.

You dont have to agree with em, but it took nearly 20 years for budiansky to get a TF graphic novel of his short story, which occured during a nostalgia fad, and was done tentively by Titan. Sarracini's was printed and ready for distribution before the last issue of TF vol. 1 hit the stands. Says something bout the demand and success of his writing, doesnt it.

Aho! We are back to the genius of 'it sold more' it is better. I assume you are humming Mariah Carey's greatest hits as you type this, because gosh darn it by your (not at all simplistic) criteria she is one of the greatest artists to ever grace the world.

And when Wildman, Senior, delbo, or even the G2 artists can publish thier own calanders, maybe then you can tell me that Pat Lee is a hack who doesnt deserve to pencil a comic.

Ill tell you now. Pat Lee does not deserve to draw a TF comic. I don't think that makes him a hack tho, hmm, what was that about not twisting peoples words. I am quite happy to see him draw a calendar tho as I HAVE STATED SEVERAL TIMES I think his pin ups are quite good. But really you are still just rehashing your 'sells more is good!' argument aren't you, so lets move along in the hope we find something more interesting of that we have not already head 14 times before spread over 3 topics this week.

You dont like it, you dont have to. Gouge yer eyes out if you dont wanna acknowledge pat lees success, But at least hes worked damn hard for it. Harder then alot of people out there that are popular, or famous, have worked for thiers.

Psst. Pat, you may wanna get that restraining order sooner rather than later. And didn't you say earlier that people should be judged on their own merits and not by comparison to others? And what does how hard he has worked have to do with the quality of his output? Here's an anagram that may help you out: NOTHING. I rearranged the N's so hopefully you won't find it too tricky.

lol, I apologize if Im bugging anyone, spidey, were cool, compy, cosmo, snarl, yall is da bomb. but BF, Im just basically twisting the knife in ya.

Kinda tickles.

Go ahead, make all the flame posts you want, make a website dedicated to flaming em, MAKE 500 for all I care.

You don't even know what a flame is do you? Cruising an artists work is not a 'flame post', it is criticising an artists work.

But you cant change the fact that sarracini and Pat lee are far more respected, appreciated, and enjoyed then budiansky ever hoped to be on his most idealistic days.

Its not a 'fact'. Unless you have asked everyone in the world its what you would like to believe, and it appears to be extrapolated entirely from your own opinion. So essentially you are claiming that your own opinion is fact. Not being at all arrogant there then.

and the next time you visit your comic shop, ask em how the G1 Vol 1 graphic novel is selling compared to budiansky or even furmans TF Grpahic novels. muahhahahahaha

'sells more is good' - that’s right, you just pat yourself on the back for that all conquering arguement. Its very good. No really.

Altho seeing as I live in the UK I suspect T2006 is selling the **** out of the DW G1 V1 series... which by your criteria would make it better.

Thing is Issey_Miyake, you don't appear to have read most of what I’ve previously posted, you don't appear to have constructed any rebuttals of merit even to the opinions you have made up on my behalf, you don't appear to have any conception of the fact that the definition of fanboy you supplied can be readily applied to yourself and you seem to think that 'twisting the knife' is exposing to all and sundry your lack of debating skills and throwing your toys out the pram.

Did you know they made you your own icon:

I look forward to your wildly entertaining ‘response’, where you will no doubt continue to tell me that I love Bob B, that I am a Fanboy who hates all of dreamwave and that I am closed-minded and stupid cos I don’t like who you like. Maybe if I’m really lucky I will be able to refute some of that. Assuming of course, I can stay awake.

To conclude: Piece. Of. Piss.

Edit - my reaction to you has nothing to do with going through a few things at the moment, it has to do with the spectacularly patronising tone you have adopted from the moment you arrived and your utter inability to engage in debate or back up your points. I mean a patronising tone is all well and good when you can lay the arguement smack down alongside it. Hell, its an art, and one to be appreaciated. But in isolation it cuts **** all. Just so we are clear.
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-08-2003 at 03:25 PM:
{in awe}

that never ceases to amaze me... or make me chuckle

{thinks of some way to start some religion vs. politics vs. science vs. alien vs. predator topic in GD}
 
Posted by Computron on 11-08-2003 at 05:04 PM:
How dare you Best First? Well constructed arguments with factual support have no place in a debate.

Hang your head in shame.
 
Posted by snarl on 11-08-2003 at 06:35 PM:
Somebdoy get Cliffjumper over here pronto.

That I'd pay to see!
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-08-2003 at 11:48 PM:
quote:
I'm totally stupid and closed minded for not liking something? Interesting. You are the same person that keeps accusing everyone else of flaming aren't you?
a while back when I was acting, I saw a few skits and jokes featuring a character that has been reused, the characters name was Ms. DaPoint (as in miss the point.) Which you did, immencely besty. the only reason Im not nicknaming you Ms. DaPoint now is that Im assuming you are in fact, male.

I pointed out that if you got your jollies *BY MAKING STUPID FLAME POSTS INSULTING THOSE WHO DONT SHARE YOUR OPINIONS, THEN GO AHEAD* And I did not accuse anyone else besides *YOU* besty of making a flame post. Yet your attempting to draw others into this, and make them feel insulted by my posts.

DO you understand finally, or are you just going to ignore the points that make you look like an idiot. You seem to take great pleasure in ignoring good points, and twisting words around. the only reason Im not taking a harsher reply, is that from what others have said, your not having an easy time right now, and I dont kick a man when hes down, no matter much he tries to bite my ankles.

You know, I couldnt even bother to call you Ms. DaPoint, becuase you didnt miss it, noone else did, you just bloody well ignored it so you could continue to behave like a MORON! Man you wrote an entire essay, trying to flame me and stir my ire again, and based it on the fact that you SO ignored the point totally and utterly, yet tried to sound intellegent.

If anyone found something intellegent in that load of huuey that BF listed, please feel free to illustrate the finer and more thought out points in a later post. Act as his translater, because while I do know how to translate the words of those who are STOOPID, Its a painful experiance for me to have to lower myself to such depths. Perhaps as his friends, you can help make him understood, but the logic of Besty is further and further seemign to me a logic of insanity, I long ago gave up trying to understand those with no respect for others with differing opinions.

In other words Besty, Im not going to waste my time reading the rest of what you posted, If you cant say it simply, clearly, and without malice, then Its not worth my time, and believe me, Ive been very tolerant. Most of my friends that wondered why anyone would have an issue with the new TF comics, stopped reading cliffjumpers DW disaster essay after paragraph one, telling me not to send em anything stupid like that again. Ive been very fair, patient, and respectful despte your Best attempts to try and invoke a stupid argument.

Your friends have been trying to make some peace on this board for you, trying to look out for you and protect you. Yet you ignore thier wishes for you, and try to continue to stir more malice. like I said, if anyone can find anything intellgent in bestys essay, lemme know. Any other garbage and stupidity, dont even bother wasting my time, or yours.

By the way, I did try and pay you the courtesy of reading some of what you wrote, two things stuck out at me

quote:
Hrrm, aren't most people enamored with their own opinion? By virtue of the fact that it's their opinion? This seems to me to be a somewhat bizarre criticism. Are you telling me that you dislike your own opinion?

Maybe you form opinions that you know to be incorrect and as soon as someone challenges you go "Yep! You're right! Got me there! I was totally wrong? But at least I’m not enamoured with my own opinion, huh? Huh? Guys? Guys come back!". Somehow tho, on the strength of the posts you have made thus far, I suspect that is not your approach.
besty, I form opinions based on what I know to be fact. If Im proven wrong, then I accept the new facts. Its called maturity, ever here of it? Its also the right and honorable thing to do, Shame you dont share similar convictions. Are most people so enamored with thier own opinions that it blinds them to reality? no besty, Just you. Not everyone twists life to suit thier own means and ends, may come as a shock to you son, but that true, is a cold hard fact of life.

Next point that lept out at me is...

quote:
Edit - my reaction to you has nothing to do with going through a few things at the moment, it has to do with the spectacularly patronising tone you have adopted from the moment you arrived and your utter inability to engage in debate or back up your points. I mean a patronising tone is all well and good when you can lay the arguement smack down alongside it. Hell, its an art, and one to be appreaciated. But in isolation it cuts **** all. Just so we are clear.
See besty, thats where you and I differ, I like Pat Lees work, and sarracinis work. I like style, and I like sarracinis writing on the G1 Vol 1. I dont need to defend it to the likes of you, or anyone else. nor do any other of the people who enjoyed it. nor do I need to crush anyone who disagrees with me, because I respect the opinions of others, to a certain degree.

Youll note how I reacted at the beginning of the budiansky lovin thread, thats due to compy saying hed sooner take budiansky over sarraicini. The very idea of that is wretched and evil, Budiansky did his best to destroy the TF comic, yet others would have him return? where Sarracini and Lee revived the franchise for comics, and are enjoying mammoth success and respect?

Look Besty, Im not here to accost or hate on anyone that disagrees with me, I can smack you down just fine besty, I seemed to have pissed you off some. But a perpetual debate online isnt my thing, I just dont have time to be bothered with small things, or small petty people like yourself. I have a typing speed of over 70 wpm these days, so i have time between workouts, dates, work, hangtimes, various projects and personal endeavors of mine, to respond at length on coffee breaks or slow periods of the day. But to be bothered to remember petty and foolish words, by someone Ive never even met face to face... words cant comply the stupidity I would feel over even the thought or mention of the idea.

flame, rant, rave, twist my words, slander my name all you want. Try and change reality to your petty little point of view. I got better things to do with my time. The slaes figures speak for themselves. DW has made a huge success with the TF liscense. Pat Lee's work is widely recognized and appreciated. Ive already given haters thier due over his work on armada, heck, I wasnt even impressed with pats work on #6-#7. It literally looked as though he didnt take the book seriously. But then again, who does? A series that mixes TF with Pokemon isnt exactly the best concept ever concieved, is it? Good thing Furman was willing to take on the book, and turn it around. The fact is though, hate Pat Lee all you want, But hes made his success by hard work, and long hours. that alone is to be respected, you dont like the art, fine you dont like the art. Ill leave it at that and let you enjoy what you enjoy. I dont need to crush those who disagree with me besty, people like yourself, who have to argue and rant against those who disagree with them, ultimately end up crushing themselves. Which Ive found is far more amusing then my doing it for them

What else is there to say besty, make all the posts you want tearing sarracini to ittle bits like you said you would, doesnt change the fact that hes a better writer then budiansky ever will be. Make posts hating on pat lee, make a dozen of em. Hes still getting respect for GOOD and HONORABLE reasons through his artwork. Theres a difference in it not being your thing, which is why I respect compy, spidey, and many others here, And in being so petty that you must argue and fight with anyone who disagrees with you.

How bout this besty, just sit back and watch pat lee for a while, and ask yourself why is he enjoying so much success? Instead of going on a mile a minute bout why you dont get it, if he sucked so much as you would say, he would have to incorporate cheap gimicks such as mostly nekkid women into his comics, or writing based on old stories and continuities, or draw his stuff in more commonly accepted western art styles. Guy must be doing something right if hes not stooping so low, Correct? Give it some thought, and you might actually grow up someday. Everything else I read was either painfully twisted, contrived, or flat out stupid. I made mention of so many of the points you brought up in past posts on this thread...

Ive spoken enuff on this, I gotta go. Making some ube for my sinta, and some friends need some Cd's burned

Look, I have no hard feelings to anyone here. like Ive said before, and please listen because having to repeat myself bothers me alot, I have nothing but respect for people that suffered through budiansky, enjoyed furman and stuck with the book to the very, heartbreaking end like I did. and for others that collected the G2 comic, despite it not being overhyped or a mainstream deal. That takes faith, guts, and respect. We all Appreciate the comics and stories, and even though we are devided on Pat Lee, and sarracini (mick as well to a lesser intensity) I have no disrespect for anyone at all, I long ago posted an apology to compy for being so harsh initially on the Budiansky thread, So all haters can just shut up and stop trying to stir up more stupidity. Anyone else, its good to be here. now can we start having fun instead of arguing all the time?
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-09-2003 at 12:10 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Lynch:
{in awe}

that never ceases to amaze me... or make me chuckle

{thinks of some way to start some religion vs. politics vs. science vs. alien vs. predator topic in GD}


Don't you dare Karly. I can handle only one heated debate at time. I probably write more essays here than for school.
 
Posted by Computron on 11-09-2003 at 12:17 AM:
It's time to re-awaken the beast...

quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:

Yet your attempting to draw others into this, and make them feel insulted by my posts.


Strawman Fallacy.

Best First is not arguing that at all. A flame isn't a flame because someone felt insulted. A flame is a flame by the very nature of it being an attack. Best First was pointing that out. I don't need to be insulted by your posts to realize that saying "I was on crack" by arguing for Budiansky having redeeming qualities was a mild flame.

DO you understand finally, or are you just going to ignore the points that make you look like an idiot.

Accusing someone else of doing what you yourself do on a regular basis is laughable, especially when your accusations are false. Best First, if you actually read his posts, has responded to every single sentence you have written as per an online debate.

You seem to take great pleasure in ignoring good points, and twisting words around.

Show me an example of him ignoring a good point. Assertion does not equal argument and we'll need evidence if you want to back up your rants. Otherwise your argument holds as much water as Sarracini's writing.

the only reason Im not taking a harsher reply,

Why...is that the stench of an unfounded patronising attitude? It is!

is that from what others have said, your not having an easy time right now, and I dont kick a man when hes down, no matter much he tries to bite my ankles.

Best First is quite capable of defending himself from whatever you throw at him. As Bush would say, "Bring it on". By no means is he down, and even if he was, he'd still be beating you in the arugment...

You know, I couldnt even bother to call you Ms. DaPoint, becuase you didnt miss it, noone else did, you just bloody well ignored it so you could continue to behave like a MORON!

Selective memory problems? Read his post and then provide the proof of him ignoring you.

Man you wrote an entire essay, trying to flame me and stir my ire again, and based it on the fact that you SO ignored the point totally and utterly, yet tried to sound intellegent.

Where's that evidence? Oh right, none of that is needed here...

If anyone found something intellegent in that load of huuey that BF listed, please feel free to illustrate the finer and more thought out points in a later post.

Aw, I'm sorry, are you no longer able to defend your beliefs any longer? Poor baby, lemme hold your hand when you cross the street next time.

Act as his translater, because while I do know how to translate the words of those who are STOOPID,

Ah, caps lock and misspelled words. Brings to mind a certain Canadian panther thingy.

Its a painful experiance for me to have to lower myself to such depths.

Yeah, I'm sure a debate about TF's is painful for you.

Perhaps as his friends, you can help make him understood, but the logic of Besty is further and further seemign to me a logic of insanity,

Round and round we go, where we'll end, nobody knows!

I long ago gave up trying to understand those with no respect for others with differing opinions.

Respect is a two way street.

"Are you on crack compy?"

"Best First, you are STOOPID"

In other words Besty, Im not going to waste my time reading the rest of what you posted,

Ah wonderful. Imagine that tactic being used in court.

Defense: Your honor, the prosecution is simply stupid and illogical, so I won't bother to refute his argument. Nevermind the fact that if his argument is illogical it should be easily defeated, but the fact of the matter is that I'm right and he's crazy.

Judge: What?

Ive been very tolerant.

What are you, a comedian all of a sudden?

Most of my friends that wondered why anyone would have an issue with the new TF comics,

Can I sense an appeal to a majority/authority fallacy coming up?

stopped reading cliffjumpers DW disaster essay after paragraph one, telling me not to send em anything stupid like that again.

There it is! I love fallacies.

Ive been very fair, patient, and respectful despte your Best attempts to try and invoke a stupid argument.

Er, you've simply stated the following line of reasoning.

1)Shohen style excuses Pat Lee's inability to draw for comics.

2)DW sold a ton of TF comics, therefore they must be good.

3)My friends though Cliffy's essay was stupid, therefore Cliffy is wrong.

4)Best First is talking crazy talk simply because I said so. No need to provide proof since it's sO mINd BlOWiNgLY OBVIOUS!!!11one

Your friends have been trying to make some peace on this board for you, trying to look out for you and protect you.

Ha! Like Best First needs us to protect him. The man is quite capable of kicking all our collective asses at the drop of a hat, (Cept mine of course), so don't try to make him out to be some doddering old fool incapable of argument.

Yet you ignore thier wishes for you, and try to continue to stir more malice. like I said, if anyone can find anything intellgent in bestys essay, lemme know. Any other garbage and stupidity, dont even bother wasting my time, or yours.

Classic. Ishin, we're gonna name a new classification of troll after you.

Oh crap, that new poster has gone Ookami on us!

Or:

Don't pull an Ishin, new guy.


Edit - Seriously Ishin, reread this topic and the Budiansky topic. You'll quickly see where you went way out in left field rather than reading those topics for what they were.
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-09-2003 at 01:31 AM:
you know, I had quite the indignant rebuttal for you compy, but whats the point? yah, I agree with uni big bro here.

I could put you in your place for your continued stupidity, maybe I will if you truly want a rebuke that will teach you where you beling, but why waste my time? apparently other users are as sick as I am with you and those like you always wanting to whine and complain, and argue with anyone who disagrees, while Ive been constantly trying to preach a message of acceptance for different tastes and styles. If you wont listen to me, then listen to uni-onii-sama (after a quick re-read before bed, I realized Im pretty tired and write unicrons big brother in japanese, sorry for anyone that messes up)

and one more thing compy

[QUOTE]Ive been very tolerant.

What are you, a comedian all of a sudden? [QUOTE/]

Compy, I had written a post to let you know how fed up I am with you, and BFs constant complaing and twisting of my words. I garuntee it would have put off others, gotten me a written warning, and probably angered you all to heck. I decided to cut and paste what I wrote, and save it for another time. Apparently uni, and others are sick of this, and so am I. So knock off this stupidity. You dont have to aplogize, I dont even think your man enough to. Just stop showing such disrespect for others. You may not respect Pat lee, sarracini, or anyone that does respect them. But have some respect for the others on this forum that are not enjoying you stupid little tirades.
 
Posted by Unicron's Big Brother on 11-09-2003 at 01:32 AM:
Can't you people just agree to disagree on this and put it behind you?
 
Posted by Computron on 11-09-2003 at 01:45 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
while Ive been constantly trying to preach a message of acceptance for different tastes and styles.
"Compy are you on crack?"

So much irony you could build a warehouse.
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-09-2003 at 01:54 AM:
For which you were long ago offered an apology from me.

I wont repeat myself

compy, just shut up. if you dont got anything good to say, dont say it. Not everyone is amused by you, and your being obnoxious. Kindly knock it off.
 
Posted by Warcry on 11-09-2003 at 02:06 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
compy, just shut up. if you dont got anything good to say, dont say it. Not everyone is amused by you, and your being obnoxious. Kindly knock it off.
Someone should start taking his own advice, methinks...
 
Posted by Computron on 11-09-2003 at 02:50 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
For which you were long ago offered an apology from me.

I wont repeat myself

compy, just shut up. if you dont got anything good to say, dont say it. Not everyone is amused by you, and your being obnoxious. Kindly knock it off.

Are you 12? Seriously, your behavior, attitude and general demeanor suggests to me the maturity of a 12 year old...at best.

I mean wow, we got enough irony to build ourselves a city now.
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-09-2003 at 02:52 AM:
and enough Bull S*** from you to turn death valley into a rain forest.

What is it about you that makes you so damn addicted to wanting to ruin Transfans for anyone that doesnt share your opinion? On second thought, dont answer that, cuz even your answer would be thoroughly disrespectful

For the last time just shut the F*** up and leave those that just want to enjoy TF in peace!
 
Posted by Best First on 11-09-2003 at 07:50 AM:
'i resepct the opinions of others and am mature enough to accept when i am wrong but i have no't bothered to read your whole post because i know it is wrong!'

Laughed my ass off.

OK, lets wrap this up. I'm gonna single out this one quote to demosntrate how overdramatic, disproportianate in your reacton to this and uncreceptive to the opinions of others you really are;

quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
The very idea of that is wretched and evil


Yeah, wretched and evil. Sure thing Mr 'Grow up Stoopoid face!'

See the thing is, i would be quite happy to agree to disagree, but Ishin doesn't even know what my opinion is because at no point has he bothered to read my posts, acknolwedge actual my opinions (as opposed to the ones attributed to me), or actually bothered to support what he is accusing me of (which admittedly would be difficukt, seeing as he has manufactured it on my behalf). So i can't really agree to disagree with him because he seems to have no ****ing clue what i am saying.

If i am the only person who this is apparent to please let me know and i will leave this debate for good - but i'm fairly sure its not just me.

I am of course quite happy to admit i'm wrong if comeone can actually, hrrm, read my posts and use evidence in the matter.

Anyway, back to chuckling...
 
Posted by spiderfrommars on 11-09-2003 at 07:51 AM:
Ishin, please. You're going to have to calm down or you'll end up getting banned. There's no need to resort to name calling. People are passionate on this subject perhaps but there is no need to get personal.

Yes your not-very-subtle statements have met with some stern replies, but thats no reason for you to get so mad.

Getting yourself banned would be pretty silly, and I personally enjoy having people of many varying opinions and tastes on this board, it keeps things interesting. So don't do anything stupid.

I also think that yourself not replying to BF's well structured post (and you supposedly not reading it) - the one that takes you up on all your points - is a bit of a total cop out. Feel free to defend yourself, but resorting to just swearing at Comps and BF doesn't help your case in the slightest.
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-09-2003 at 01:10 PM:
Seriously Ishin, in the last couple days you have lost my respect and the respect of a lot of people here. Your constant practice of ingnoring large sections of people's posts twisting their words insulting them in a childish fashion have undermined any credibility you might have had.

The only one flaming is you son so sit down shut up and quit wasting our time. Move on cause no one here want to hear you rant. I've wasted my time reading your tripe of the last day and I can't say I'm happy. Best First does not need my defence or the defence of anyone here. If you wanna post something of value without insulting people fine. Otherwise your presence is unappreciated. We're a pretty tight community here at Transfans and we don't appreciate people here coming to stir up trouble and insult our members. The people you have insulted are my friends and I don't appreciate you slandering them the way you have. Either be a positive contributor to the community or don't be surprised when you don't find yourself very welcome here.
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-09-2003 at 01:16 PM:
no help from me needed, just thought id boost my post count and observe whats going on man this is a weird post when you read it from start to finish... goes something like:

"I don't like fish. Here is a fish joke."

"How dare you say people who eat fish are stupid!"

"Huh...?"

"What, you stupid or something? Here's some statistics about rhoobarb that prove my point..."
 
Posted by Hound on 11-09-2003 at 01:48 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Lynch:
no help from me needed, just thought id boost my post count and observe whats going on man this is a weird post when you read it from start to finish... goes something like:

"I don't like fish. Here is a fish joke."

"How dare you say people who eat fish are stupid!"

"Huh...?"

"What, you stupid or something? Here's some statistics about rhoobarb that prove my point..."


Genius
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-09-2003 at 06:22 PM:
Yknow blacksword, Time and again Ive assumed my posts were clear as day, but I guess we are on totally different levels of communication. Allow me, to attempt to one more time, make my post here, and show you why I consider this whole thread to be so offensive.

Now, I think BF's, Compy's, and a few others here main complaint about Pat Lee, is that he has no idea about how to illustrate a story. That his style is rubbish, trash on nonsense. I would think, to a comic collecter of any integrety, that this would be quite obviously rubbish, but apparently you seem to be missing my point, allow me to present it clear as day.

If Pat Lees style of illustrating comics were indeed so awful, then Im afraid that such huge comic Artists such as Rumiko Takahashi (easily the most succesful and respected Female comic artist in the world, writer of ranma 1/2, inu yash, one point gospel, mermaid saga, rumic theatre, urusei yatsura, and my personal favorite, maison ikkoku.) Taku Iwasaki. Katsuhiro Otomo (ever hear of akira?) and other popular manga artists would never have enjoyed any success. Because pat lee has been so obviously motivated by the greats of manga, and his style is absoloutly influenced by that style. Im sorry, but that is the truth. The style Pat Lee draws in mixes many eccentricities of shohen, but also retains many mainstream touchses as well. His work is clearly japanese in style. Yet many here seem to take great delight in saying his style is horrible for telling a story, then how did such greats of manga ever get published? Explain this fact to me, and dont ANYONE DARE to insult the culture, lets not descend into bigotry here.

The simple fact of the matter here is that the style, is not very common where most of you are, in the UK. Fer crying out loud Beast wars ended here in the west nearly five years ago, yet your just watching season three now? That tells me something of distrubution to the UK. I get the feeling that One couldnt be further from japanese influences in your part of the world if they tried. So I assume that japanese art, and comics doesnt get much circulation as well. Because once again, to say that the art style sucks, does not tell a story well, yet it is duplicated in many widely successful and world wide published manga, and magazines, shows that the style is very much popular. Widely accepted, yet is an acquired taste. Were the style as bad as many of you complain, there would be no hayo miyazaki, no matrix trilogy or crouching tiger hidden dragon, because the style you complain about has made its impact felt worldwide, for nearly thirty years. These are facts, figures, indisputable evidance. I know besty and compy are going to try and tell me that sales figures do not a quality publication make, but for the sales figures to be dominant worldwide, and have far more impact on pop culture worldwide then UK or american published comics, is a sign that something very cool and awesome is in the style.

Saying the style sucks, borders (borders: verb: To closely infringe, or approach a line, or limit, without violating or crossing it) on racisim itself. It is a style that is distinctly japanese, and a successful style as well. you can tell me furmans success, or wildmans success, and were I as closed minded as many others here, I would quote the same vapid proverb back at you. I recognize and respect the success of these artists, but thier impact and talents pale when compared to the japanese style. Technology, ways of conducting business, animation, stortelling, fight choreography, and many other world wide conventions can be traced back to japanese, and chinese cultures. You can say it doesnt work for you, or its not your thing, but to say it sucks, when it obviously does not, because of its worldwide and far reaching impact, is a sign of a closed and petty mind.

Like it or not, the style most definately does not suck, it is quite simply a style that many of your *friends* have not been exposed to, and would have to expend some thought to adjust to the new storytelling style. reading a few manga online, or browsing it at a comic shop, or even buying a title here and there, does not mean you understand it totally. It takes years of exposure to something so far reaching and vast to comprehend, and to criticize such a style simply because its alien, does anger me greatly.

Closed mindedness, stupidity, and vulgarity are traits i thoroughly do not respect Blacksword. And you seem to ignore compy's and BF's insults, while ignoring my offers of a truce, and attempting to not let some bitter feelings get out of control. I sense a double standard, and am thoroughly not impressed by your post in the least. Ive shown why the style is so great, explained why it is entirely unjustified to speak so about the style, and done so without insults or disrespect here. If anyone has anything to say about it, feel free to put in your 2c worth. But success, is a hard opponent to argue against. Were BF, blacksword, or compy skilled in both comic writing, and penciling an issue, maybe I could accept your disrespect against pat lee with some due consideration, but none of you are, thus there is little justification whatsover for the comments Ive read on this thread for the past few days. you twist my words, and make little sense in doing so. But when I quote REAL artists, and writers that respect pat lee's work, well why havnt I seen someone quoting that at me... oh right, its not what you want to hear. It shows others you might be wrong, *gasp*

Im in a good mood, had a good day. Ill say it one more time, the bad blood thats been simmering around this thread for the past few days need not continue. Id much rather come on here, make some cracks how armada sucks, how revolutions rocked, and share what insight I can offer and take what TRUE insight I can gain from those here. But I will not engage in the foolishness that has occured on this thread any further.

Gnite, and god bless
 
Posted by spiderfrommars on 11-09-2003 at 07:38 PM:
This is getting beyond ridiculous. I mean it. Now you are infering that people are racist because they don't like Pat Lee's artwork? You can type stuff like that with a straight face? And I'm not twisting your words, you actually said it.

Slating Pat Lee's style and slating Manga are not the same thing. What has it to do with being excluded from japanese influences (though Manga's popularity here is far reaching) I have no idea. Do all manga produced comics have badly drawn images that do not tell a story effectively? No. Pat Lee's work certainly does though.

By the way, the Beast Wars episodes currently airing in the UK are old repeats. And don't forget that the people you are currently dissing consist of a Brit, an American and a Canadian. So don't go making assumptions of what people are/are not exposed to.

If not liking Pat Lee's style borders on racism then so be it. I must be a bigoted ****.
 
Posted by Rebis on 11-09-2003 at 07:57 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
Were BF, blacksword, or compy skilled in both comic writing, and penciling an issue, maybe I could accept your disrespect against pat lee with some due consideration, but none of you are, thus there is little justification whatsover for the comments Ive read on this thread for the past few days.
Do you only listen to film critics if you know they made films?

Or how about the news? Do you ignore a report of a war if you don't know the reporter was ever in the military? Or a report on crime by a non-criminal?

You talk of how not liking the anime style borders on racism, as anime is almost exclusively a Japanese art form. But I'm sure there are art forms you don't like that are almost exclusively from a particular place. Wouldn't that mean that your own opinion would border on racism?

And as for not giving any credit to someone who has never created anything in the art form they are giving criticism too, well, who is better qualified to criticise an art form than the intended audience?

From what I've seen so far, it is you who is the prejudiced one and do not consider opinions that are other than parallel to your own.
 
Posted by Computron on 11-09-2003 at 08:01 PM:
Amazing. I love how I'm a racist for not regarding Pat Lee's work as top notch.

Seriously Ishin, I've watched tons of anime, and read lots of manga. Probably not as much as you have, but on the same token I've been readily exposed to the medium plenty of times.

And after all that, upon seeing Pat Lee's work, I can simply conclude that he is not a good comic book artist. If that makes me racist, so be it.

Oh, by the way, aside from the glaring problems in your argument that spider already touched upon, you also made the assertion that only those with skills or are in the profession of which they critique are valid criticisms. That's garbage. Apparently I can no longer say a movie rocked simply because I'm not an actor. And I can't say a computer game is good since I'm not a game programmer. And of course, I can't say a comic book is bad because I'm not a writer.

That's simply garbage.

Kindly considered yourself on thin ice for repeated flaming and false accusations. Step a wee bit further and you'll be banned.
 
Posted by grymloq on 11-09-2003 at 09:02 PM:
Wow big big essays and people being mean i cant cope, isnt this ment to be fun.
chill or ill start a big fight topic and then youll all be sory, something along the lines of which transformers versus the care bears. Dont say i didnt warn you
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-09-2003 at 09:42 PM:
You know I keep wondering if there are two Ishins running around, cause you seem to have missed my remark in the Budiansky thread about how this has nothing to do with Lee's art being Japanese in style.

Let me see now. I love Don Figueroa and consider him one of the best TF artists of all time and hold on ... his style is distincly Japanese.

I have long considered the animation in Masterforce, Headmasters, Victory, and Zone to be vastly superior to the US animation in the other TF cartoons and hold on here.... they were Japanese series.

I also stated that I'm a fan of Technoman, and I'll add here it's one of my favourite cartoons ever. And that would be... Japanese, and by you own words influenced by Shohen.

Oh and one more thing son, the MAtrix was in look and concept taken almost verbatim from a British comic called "The Invisibles". The action style is most certainly Japanese, and is something which makes them such good films to watch. I also love the Animatrix, soem of which was done by.... Japanese animators.

Oh and as for me not being able to write. I've had a 40 page fanfic in the top 25 at Lexicon for several months which has since going up in the spring recieved 844 hits. And I don't know anyone there if you wanna say it's mutual back slapping.
 
Posted by Computron on 11-09-2003 at 11:22 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword:

Oh and as for me not being able to write. I've had a 40 page fanfic in the top 25 at Lexicon for several months which has since going up in the spring recieved 844 hits. And I don't know anyone there if you wanna say it's mutual back slapping.

I do believe Ishin has been owned.
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-10-2003 at 03:48 AM:
are some of you reaally that thin skinned.

first of all, note Ive mentioned that there are more then 1 way to write a japanese comic, but Ive distinctly said that pat lees style is also japanese.

second, I didnt say you have to love it, or hate it. But at the same time, a post like this one, making childish cracks on pat lees style, does show a huge lack of respect for a style that IS *A* japanese style. To say that the art style sucks, is a disrespect on the style as well, seriously. Vol 1 had far more heavier manga influences then vol 2. and as for people that say that pat lee was the one who had decided the the storyline, and sarracini simply wrote dialouge around it, doesnt surprise me one bit.

Noone was called a racist. If you dont like the style, thats cool, you dont have to. ive said that time and again, so READ PAST POSTS but my point being that a post like this one, that began the way this one did, truly does show a HUGE disrespect for japanese styles of comic illustrating. sure, I like technoman too. I also like naruto, which though its a HUGE hit and has yet to be imported to the west, I doubt some people here would like considering how slow moving it is. Some complain that Vol 1 was a slow paced and bloated story, the first 26 episodes of naruto focus on a SINGLE battle, and draw out the battle for dramatic impact. Similar to the way Pat Lee draws out simple actions across panels to illustrate simple, actions like autobots approaching a base, and transforming. A more western style would be two panels, autobots approach, autobots transform. Considering I can be considered half japanese, half eropean, i can get into both styles, and not hate on either.

Ill say this one more time, but since few people really are taking the time to READ the posts, and really try to understand what Im saying here. But let me just present to you, the basic and underlying points of what Ive been getting at for the past few days. Presented as simply and directly as I can without actually tattoing them onto ya

1. there are different styles of japanese storytelling.

2. Pat lees style beleongs and is a tribute to a japanese style, and can be seen in works like akira, rurouni kenshin, inu yasha, and others.

3 not liking pat lees artwork, does not make you a racist or an idiot, so stop being so thin skinned.

Making posts like this one, does show a huge disrespect for the style though, and disrespecting a style without respecting its successes, does Show a great deal of small mindedness. Look at how this post began, and consider it was a way to flame my compliments of lees style, and lees style in general Which is utterly japanese, through and through. Vol 1 moreso then Vol 2. Then maybe you can understand why I was so enraged.

4. and final..... If the style sucked, how come its more recognized and respected worldwide, and been incorporated into several other mediums of storytelling, then any western style.

Conclusion, it doesnt suck, its just simply not your thing. It doesnt make any one a racist, stupid, idiotic. Arguing back and forth with no intention of respecting others does that

If other anime and manga are, groovy, enjoy it and get into with full blessings. but keep in mind that lees style, is also very japanese, and let those who enjoy it live in peace. Its not that Ill flame anyone who hates pat lee, youll note that it was this post in general that thoroughly stirred my ire, for its lack of respect for the style in general. I have shown constant tolerance for others that disagree with me in the past, and will continue to do so. But Posts like this one will only serve to stir my ire.

There, I think thats about as simple as I can make my points known. Ive been saying these things for the past few days, Im respecting the wishes Ive seen and heard from people here, to help end this bickering. Compy, Blacksword, and yes, even you BF. My msn is yusuku13@hotmail.com, and my AIM is DaRonin5, any further debates, discussions, arguments, or whatnot can take place there. But lets try to show some respect for those that are just here to have fun, and not quite as passionate as we about our points.

Oh, and one more thing

quote:
Oh and as for me not being able to write. I've had a 40 page fanfic in the top 25 at Lexicon for several months which has since going up in the spring recieved 844 hits. And I don't know anyone there if you wanna say it's mutual back slapping.

I do believe Ishin has been owned.


Congratulations Blacksword

Ive had publication offers for some of my writings. and have written several songs and bits of music, to which has made total strangers walk up, shake my hand, and thank me. I also tutor Drama and english have had past teachers ask me to help thier students because they wernt sure how to, and japanese and tagalog fairly decently, thank you very much. when someone here can top that, in the literary field alone, then maybe you can say ive been.... how did you put it.... owned?

no hard feelings anyone, take care, god bless, and Gnite
 
Posted by Obfleur on 11-10-2003 at 04:31 AM:
I really admire everyones patience with Ishin_ookami.
 
Posted by Air Raid on 11-10-2003 at 05:12 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Obfleur:
I really admire everyones patience with Ishin_ookami.
I guess this is a new record for Transfans.
BF,Compy,Blacksword,Spidey,Karl and many others have tried to explain a lot of stuff,but it isn't going through Ishin's head. Karl's fish story summarized this debate very well. And I still suspect Ishin is Pat Lee in disguise when he's taking this so personal.
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-10-2003 at 05:59 AM:
okay, for the sake of argument, maybe your right. Maybe BF is a totally nice chap who meant no disrespect whatsoever when he started this post. Maybe Ive been totally wrong all this time for being so ticked and accusing him for being so closed minded

So, for the sake of argument, mayhap could one of you explain the innocent, and innocuous humor behind this post, that I have so in my blind ways missed? Ive stated my stance, and where I stand in this. I loathe stupidity in any form, and all I currently see at the beginning to end of this post, is stupidity.

So what exactly was so funny about those drawings that I missed? that seemed to be a diss on a art style far more succesful and widely recognized then any of the artists and thier styles that anyone here has mentioned?

Karls fish story did quite um up where this thread has gone, the style of it anyway. Its less of a clash of tastes and more of BF trying to shove his taste down the throat of anyone who disagrees with him. in the vein of karls fish story, dont try to shove a vegetable down the throat of someone who enjoys a seafood diet, BF, compy, and anyone else. It matters little how many agree with you on here, its still wrong to make a thead like this; justifying your dislike for a style when there are many more fans out there that enjoy the style your bashing for very good reasons.

If this doesnt get resolved today, Im just going to stop viewing this tread. It really has gotten so totally warped and stupid, and It really has no place amongst those trying to show thier support for transfans.

But like I said, If Im so totally wrong, explain to me the innocence of BF's attempts at humor, and impactors as well. If Ive missed it, explain it to me. Please.
 
Posted by Best First on 11-10-2003 at 06:40 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
okay, for the sake of argument, maybe your right. Maybe BF is a totally nice chap who meant no disrespect whatsoever when he started this post. Maybe Ive been totally wrong all this time for being so ticked and accusing him for being so closed minded

I would suggest that you should explore anyone's opinions a bit more than you have done before you resort to such insults as closed minded. To adopt your tone, to me this is quite obvious.

So, for the sake of argument, mayhap could one of you explain the innocent, and innocuous humor behind this post, that I have so in my blind ways missed? Ive stated my stance, and where I stand in this.

Well, a less reactionary individual might consider the following points;

1) It doesn't actually look anything like anything Pat Lee has ever drawn, or at least published, does it? Or anything like any Manga ever, does it?

2) I have stated that i like some of Lee's work - which would be rather contradictary to the title of the topic (which is clearly tongue in cheek) if the topic was intended as a serious slant, wouldn't it?

3) There is a wink at the start of the topic isn't there? See it?

There is nothing in the initial post to sugest this is a serious stab at debate - let alone to 'ram my opinions down other people's throats. There is evrything there to suggest it is a piss take. Yes, it was ionspired by recent debates, but that doesn't detract from the fact that this post was not serious. It was designed to make people laugh, and if you look at the response i think you will find it did. Of course you being you you will find it much simpler to dismiss all these people as stupid than concede the point. Assuming you understand it.

I loathe stupidity in any form, and all I currently see at the beginning to end of this post, is stupidity.



So what exactly was so funny about those drawings that I missed? that seemed to be a diss on a art style far more succesful and widely recognized then any of the artists and thier styles that anyone here has mentioned?

So again we are back to:

a)the barometer that sucess defines quality - even tho that stance has been succesfully refuted a number of times.

and

b)by attacking Pat Lee's interior comic art you are also 'disrepsecting' (to criticise is not to disrispect you dolt) a 'style' and therefore a whole heap of other artists. Wonderful leap you have made there on my behalf. Also spectacularly illogical, as a number of people have tried to explain to you time and time again.

Karls fish story did quite um up where this thread has gone, the style of it anyway.Its less of a clash of tastes and more of BF trying to shove his taste down the throat of anyone who disagrees with him. in the vein of karls fish story, dont try to shove a vegetable down the throat of someone who enjoys a seafood diet, BF, compy, and anyone else.

Actually, its not a clash of tastes because;

1) You don't actually seem to be aware as to what othetr peoples tastes are - you just assume ignorance on their part and decide what they like even when they have made explicit statements to the contrary.

2) It wasn't supposedto be a serious thread.

It matters little how many agree with you on here, its still wrong to make a thead like this; justifying your dislike for a style when there are many more fans out there that enjoy the style your bashing for very good reasons.

"Tho more people agree with you here i know waaaay more people somewhere else that think you are wrong! ha!"

hey look, its your icon again:

And this thread doesn't 'justify' my dislike - cos its not a serious thread see? Its a piss take.

If this doesnt get resolved today, Im just going to stop viewing this tread. It really has gotten so totally warped and stupid, and It really has no place amongst those trying to show thier support for transfans.

I notice your offers of 'truce' always include you having the last word? Yes, folks, maturity lives and breathes....

But like I said, If Im so totally wrong, explain to me the innocence of BF's attempts at humor, and impactors as well. If Ive missed it, explain it to me. Please.

And when you do , look forwad to an oh so receptive response....

[This message has been edited by Ishin_ookami (edited 11-10-2003).]
[parody]However I think the relevant point here is that i have a lot of friends, several oscars, one nobel prize, a Gold Swimming certificate, won a prize for art at the age of 7, 11 GCSE's, 2 Degree's, a dog, am very popular, go one dates all the time, have cured cancer and am loved and respected by all who know me. I have writen song's that made dictator's cry. I have penned epic's that were so good Tolkien made the journey from heaven just to compliment me on them and buy me a pint, which by the way i downed in 0000000.1 second I also once wrote a story that i got really good marks for from my teacher, altho as all women fancy me this may have been for another reason. I also assume that anyone who disagrees with me does so because they don't know what they are talking about[/parody]

In seriousness - I suggest you read your posts back to yourself and reflect on what a spectacularly pompous ass you are displaying yourself to be to all and sundry.

Come on, just a little self awareness, please?
 
Posted by impactor returns on 11-10-2003 at 07:03 AM:
My humor is easy to explain, ive been herte to long and am a old git.

Honestly tho, it was a joke.
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-10-2003 at 08:22 AM:
Just a final point on style by me.

I don't like several areas of Lee's style his Prime being the part I hate most, but that is not why I consider him to be a poor comic artist.

I hold that his attempt to use an animation style for a comic was highly unsuccessful. Not because it was Japanese, or manga or Shohen, but because comics and animation are two very different media. There are only 22 page in a North American format comic therefore there has to be acertain ammount of story telling done in those pages. Wasted space is wasted space. Long lead ins, pan shots slow zoom in sequences work great for animation but are just a gimmicky was of sapce in a comic as they have very little of the imact they would have in animation. I'll throw in blur effects and other things in here. While they look kinda cool they have nothing to do with Lee as an artist and are something any chump with photshop can do.

Composition is a characteristic of all art and Lee has been pretty porr in this respect as his panels are photoshopped out of several independent drawings and gluedon to backgrounds whose look is different than the foreground material even if that's a console the TF has their hand on. I mostly like Lee's covers save for the twin colvers for vol2 #1 whihc looked half assed. The drawings weren't great and they looked randomly glued on with no consideration of composition. This is probably the worst example of a constant problem Pat Lee has.

The serious degredation of his art in Vol 1from issue 2 to issues 5 and 6 is quite noticable and clearly shows that Lee cannot do quality art on a monthly comic's timescale, even with it being a six issue mini and not having to do his own backgrounds. This makes him very unsuited to comic art, especially as he doesn't have the ofetting factor of being a god in pencils like say a Brian Hitch.

Lee is suitable for posters and lithographs many of which were quite nice, but he is not a good comic book artist. This in no way insults his style or him as a person or those who he took inspiration from.

This is what we have been trying to say for a week now more or less.
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-10-2003 at 08:33 AM:
ishin this is daft- you said people who didn't like pat lees work were one level away from racism against the Japanese!

i mean for goodness sake this is just weirdness... all over nothing!
 
Posted by Ozz on 11-10-2003 at 08:41 AM:
I read G1 vol 2 #6 recently. And judging by this issue, I must say Pat Lee's art is very poor. When characters are standing still, it doesn't look bad (although I don't like them being 'balloony'). However then there's some action, it all go to ****ter. Sometimes I don't have a slightest clue what's going on. If it wasn't for Mick's annoying references to cartoon and TF:TM, I wouldn't knew that it is Blitzwing who's attacking Hot Rod. The way Magnus defeat Shockwave still remains a mystery for me. I can only guessing what happened there.

Lee can draw good posters. Covers too. He fails at drawing action in comics. And it doesn't matter what brilliant art style he uses and if reader knows nothing about that style, when he fails to do what his job requires him to do.
 
Posted by Obfleur on 11-10-2003 at 09:31 AM:
Dudes, I feel so happy.
I found the DW comics really confusing, and I thought that it was because of me, not being used to read comics.
I often found myself thinking "What/who is that ? What happened to him?"

But after reading a lot of other comics, by other artists, I now understand that it isnt my fault! Yay I am not stupid!
 
Posted by Metal Vendetta on 11-10-2003 at 09:37 AM:
Phew, I go away for a couple of days and look what happens. Let's get a few things straight.

1. I hate the Japanese.
2. I hate Shohen. I'm not sure what it is, but I think it sucks.
3. Bob Budiansky is my best mate. We share women.
4. Nothing that DW produce can ever rival the cartoon in terms of sheer greatness. The artwork, storylines and continuity were all superior in the old days.
5. There is no God.
6. I also have a tattoo of Orion Pax on an unmentionable part of my body. Actually it's a tattoo of our Orion Pax, the poster currently known as Dylan
7. Manga sucks. Anyone wasting their time reading comics by Japanese people is a MORON.
8. Best First is the greatest. I would die to defend his good name and I want his babies.
9. Anime sucks as well. I've never seen such a load of badly-drawn, badly-animated toss in all my life. People who like anime are STOOPID.
10. I've just spent my lunch hour reading this topic, when I could have been doing something far more productive (like trimming my arse-beard, or something). Ishin, you have taken an hour of my life away that I'll never get back. And for what? Because BF made fun of Pat Lee's crappy artwork? Because your you and your "friends" in the Pat Lee five-a-side mutual masturbation team think he's the best thing since sliced bread and you want to recruit more members? (npi) Because you don't read other people's posts before disagreeing with them and calling them a stupid moron?

Slightly bitter sarcasm aside, Ozz has made the point I was going to make already - with the exact examples I was going to give. If Pat could draw a decent comic, then his pictures would be CLEAR and UNAMBIGUOUS and we'd all be able to tell what was happening in each frame. Witness the shocking fiasco of the end of G1#3 or #4...you know when Devastator appeared to be looking at something in the sky...or was he stretching? For that to have been the "cliffhanger" last panel of a comic beggars belief. THAT's when the sales figures dropped, mark my words, because a comic artist who can't illustrate what is supposed to be going on is a worthless comic artist.

quote:
Originally posted by Best First:
And also for the record, anyone who fancies Arcee should really really stop it. Like, right now.
...damn. But she's hot!
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-10-2003 at 09:46 AM:
quote:
And also for the record, anyone who fancies Arcee should really really stop it. Like, right now
damn right. Galvatron on the other hand...
 
Posted by Best First on 11-10-2003 at 09:52 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Metal Vendetta:
8. Best First is the greatest. I would die to defend his good name and I want his babies.


I choose to take this part of yopur post entirely seriously.

i.e that will cost you $10.
 
Posted by Metal Vendetta on 11-10-2003 at 10:05 AM:
The money's already on the dresser.
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-10-2003 at 10:11 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Metal Vendetta:

5. There is no God.

Come on man it's perfectly obvious there is one. Studying the art of Pat Lee it becomes immediately evident that he is source of all creation.

Sorry couldn't resist. But Ishin you really you sound like the Grand Inquisitor denouncing heretics. Being called a borderline racist made my night btw.

quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:


Saying the style sucks, borders (borders: verb: To closely infringe, or approach a line, or limit, without violating or crossing it) on racisim itself.


Ya see saying the style suckes because it was Japanese would be racist. If I say the art of the Italian Renaisance sucks, I'm not being racist to Italians, or if I say Russian 19th century literature (which I love btw) sucks doesn't mean I'm being racist to Russians. Anyone who said such a thing would be laughed at, (as well as the people who said those things sucked but that's beside the point)Your assertion is nonsense, especially when most of us here have said we like a number of Japanese styles. And calling someone a borderline racist is pretty damn close to calling them racist, one word doesn't get you off the hook.
 
Posted by Computron on 11-10-2003 at 11:39 AM:
EmVee, that was well said.

But allow me to retort on behalf of Ishin.

It's shohen and it's successful, so if you don't like it, something is wrong with you, not Pat Lee. It is inconceivable that Lee could just be a poor artist. Saying so means you hate the Japanese and are borderline racist. But I'm not saying you're racist, I'm merely saying that you are. If you want to continue this debate email me at Ignoranceisbliss@DW.com.

I believe that about sums it up...
 
Posted by Ratchet on 11-10-2003 at 03:53 PM:
surely a great example of Pat lee not being able to draw a story is one of the first pages in the first issue, volume 2.

Skywarp and Ironhide are duking it out, suddenly ironhide has a big hole in his back. We know how this happens because we know what Skywarp can do - but look at the pictures - you cannot bloody tell what is happening because Lee is trying to cram so much wanky action in. I swear he even drew that scene i mentioned backwards.

Take one of the last isues of G1 vlo 1, when Prime looks up to the sky in horror - you really wander what it is he looking at, you turn the page, and Devastator uis there, looking upwards gormlessly. It is not clear that Prime was looking at Devastator, its like they were all looking upwards, we were expecting Metroplex or something!

Lee's TF art is pretty on the outside, but so badly flawed
 
Posted by Best First on 11-10-2003 at 03:59 PM:
Plinkyplokmonkey!

I'm having sausages for tea!
 
Posted by Ishin_ookami on 11-10-2003 at 05:43 PM:
Um, not sure where to start, or if I even should.

First of all, BS... I mean BF (wonder how I could have made that mistake? ), you say it was a simple joke, and I pretty much made a big deal out of it, well It wasnt funny from the start, it was purile and stupid. You seem to think just cuz you want it to be, your a funny chap. your not.

Another thing, you called me pompous, its true Im quite a proud man. my nickname even admits that I am proud, and vicious (Proud wolf, remember?). But Its a pride that comes with having proven myself, time and again, to be multitalented, and successful in most of my lifes endeavors so far, and the ones that are to come, I am proving successful in acieving the dreams I have. If I was a total bag of hot air, incapable of matching my words with my actions, like yourself, then Id be a insufferable A-hole. Again; Like yourself. So pardon me for actually having done something with my life, that take place in the real world. And having been recognized for it. I hope your not too intimidated.

And, Bs, I mean BF (whateva) you say you know lots more who agree with you on the art style. I know many who agree with me as well, Ive seen literally hundreads of reviews, in which websites like amazons tally, and compare various votes for the Vol 1 paperback. STraight A's, and four stars, and the likes are typically the lowest ranks I see on such websites. gee, wonder if any of your friends go there and vote

As for others that cricize the art still, how many times do I have to say it. It is manga, it is manga, it is manga. The artstyle is used by over a hundread different artists, just not in mainstream US, and UK comics. I understand your not getting it, despite explanations in past threads you still say the same things, "Was Devestator looking at some approaching threat in #4 of vol 1, whats the impact of superion dying, why was megatron talking to prime so much. Okay, one more time....

First of all, its only been here that Ive heard that complaint about #4. nearly everyone I talked to previously, on other forms, had no trouble getting devestator was roaring in triumph.

next, Superion was the powerbot of the autobots. When he was taken down, the autobots got smoked. When the arialbots were released, the autobots were kicking butt. Superion was a major part of the team, flying the autobots to san francisco, and helping to keep devestator busy, and saving several humans. As for his death, what if guns or missles missed the nuke? radioactive fallout is diluted by water, but some could still be carried on the wind. It was important for superion to take down that nuke asap, and couldnt waste time trying to be fancy.

As for prime and megatron, the autobts were USED by the humans they protected. They had blood on thier hands, and were being manipulated and lied to from the beginning. Megs new this, and though he typically hated prime for standing in his way, when he saw a great soldier being used and hurt like that, he felt pity for him. How the freakin samhill is THAT such a stretch?

quote:
Skywarp and Ironhide are duking it out, suddenly ironhide has a big hole in his back. We know how this happens because we know what Skywarp can do - but look at the pictures - you cannot bloody tell what is happening because Lee is trying to cram so much wanky action in. I swear he even drew that scene i mentioned backwards.
No offence my friend, but that scene, was actually very well drawn. you see ironhide shooting at skywarp, but half his body isnt there, just a sound effect and part of his legs that are teleporting out last, then you see a partially rematerialized skywarp, gunning down ironhide from behind. As for the style of which that scene was drawn in, yes from a uk, western perspective it was being drawn backwards in smaller panels scrolling over a large splash page with op and megs fighting in a snow field, but thats just another japanese influence. In japan, china, korea, and other asian countries, magazines, newspapers, and manga read from left to right. Meaning from where the back end of a book would be in our countries, that would be the front cover in japan. I can see alot of people having an issue with that part of pat lees style, But I appreciate pat lee being a bit radical with his comic design. When you consider the target audiance, mostly whitebred males, hes taken alot of chances. And no, for all those looking for another accusation to throw at me, I dont consider Ratchet a racist, I just tried to explain something he naturally would have missed.

I even went so far as to using an example, how its a anime and manga style, to draw out simple actions to show character through those actions, or to simply flex some artistic muscles. Pat lee took the style a bit further, and made some of the panels akin to animation. Wow, must of sucked too, because its been getting critical praise and adulation from various publications. And even old TF greats like Furman and wildman are praising Pat lee and sarracini and mick, but they are all sellouts, or stupid, or ignorant. everyone that agrees with BF, compy, and co. is absoloutly 100% correct, and they can say anything we want about anyone who disagrees, because ignorance is not only bliss, its a way of life. Espescially for thier lives. No offence to most parties, but I find BF, compys and others lack of respect for me due to the fact I defend a style they disrespect juvenile.

Anyway, like I said, this is going nowhere. Its just a endless back and forth on a subject that should not even have come up, due to its lack of respect for the opinions for others. so this will be the last time I post. The sun has set here in canada, and I have recieved no message or notifications of being added by anyone here. some of you totally remind me of little children that ring a doorbell and run away. You can say stuff, but you dont want to settle the arguments you start. Very mature gentlemen, but I expected no better from the likes of compy, and BF. I understand you meant it as a simple joke BF, but seriously, it wasnt funny, It just went to show how you didnt like to lose that argument we had on the budiansky lovin thread. You say Im wrong, but its hard to take a person like you seriously, a man that doesnt take himself seriously. So, dont be too surprised when I say I find your claim of innocence particularly hollow and empty.

from here on out, no hard feelings. Ive mentioned time and again that its not the differing opinions that angered me, it was the disrespect of this thread to the art style in general. Were I to make a similar thread of wildmans or senior style, which is less adopted and used then pat lees, I suspect I truly would be banned. I have nothing but total respect for the opinions of everyone here, even you besty, and I did overreact slightly initially. I still find this post to be unamusing, and insulting to the hundreads of artists that use the very same style lee does, but his argument is going nowhere. so, Ill see all of you on other parts of the forum.

See you around, space cowboy

[This message has been edited by Ishin_ookami (edited 11-10-2003).]
 
Posted by Best First on 11-10-2003 at 06:29 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
Um, not sure where to start, or if I even should.

No, go on - it will be funny.

First of all, BS... I mean BF (wonder how I could have made that mistake? )

Yesss, and you tell me i'm not funny. Thats almost as good as Ms Dapoint - comedy genius...

, you say it was a simple joke, and I pretty much made a big deal out of it, well It wasnt funny from the start, it was purile and stupid.

See, i know you find this difficult, but just saying something is something isn't sufficient. You have to say why.

And as for not funny, look at the responses. People found it funny. Its spectacularly obvious that people foun dit funny, but you just can't accept it.

You seem to think just cuz you want it to be, your a funny chap. your not.

Actually, i think i'm funny because when i make a joke - people laugh. Its not a ****ing conicidence.

[n]Another thing, you called me pompous, its true Im quite a proud man. my nickname even admits that I am proud, and vicious (Proud wolf, remember?). But Its a pride that comes with having proven myself, time and again,

At what? Repeating yourself? 10th Dan in patronising people? Sensei of ignoring valid points?

to be multitalented, and successful in most of my lifes endeavors so far, and the ones that are to come, I am proving successful in acieving the dreams I have. If I was a total bag of hot air, incapable of matching my words with my actions, like yourself, then Id be a insufferable A-hole. Again; Like yourself.

See, this i love. Do you know me? No? Do you know my achievements? No.

So, once again you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what an arrogant muppet you are - assuming a natural superiority when you have no evidence to back it up.

So pardon me for actually having done something with my life, that take place in the real world. And having been recognized for it.

And how do you know i havn't? Just because i don't feel the need to try and back up my points with commenst like 'i have written songs that strangers thanked me for' . Jesus. Get over yourself already son.

I hope your not too intimidated.



Ok - you are funny - i'll give you that.

And, Bs, I mean BF (whateva) you say you know lots more who agree with you on the art style.

I never said that anywhere. I don't feel compelled to back up my opinion by fabricating nebulous hordes to back it up because i am secure enough in myself to know that this makes not a dash of difference to what i think.

I know many who agree with me as well, Ive seen literally hundreads of reviews, in which websites like amazons tally, and compare various votes for the Vol 1 paperback. STraight A's, and four stars, and the likes are typically the lowest ranks I see on such websites. gee, wonder if any of your friends go there and vote

Thats nice, but seeing as you are responding to me paraphrasing you rather than my actual opinion you are wasting my time. Does, mayhap, one of your monumental achievements include basic comprehension of the English language?

As for others that cricize the art still, how many times do I have to say it.

Once. Try it.

just not in mainstream US, and UK comics.

Actually its used a lot nowadays in mainstream US comics.

I understand your not getting it

Just laugh along folks, its easier...

, despite explanations

explanations? "Its good cos its Japanese!"

First of all, its only been here that Ive heard that complaint about #4. nearly everyone I talked to previously, on other forms, had no trouble getting devestator was roaring in triumph.

There was a 4 page topic on DW's own baord about WTF was going on. There was similar at TFarchive.

'I have not seen anyone say this before so it must be wrong' - you weren't an ostrich ina previous life were you?

next, Superion was the powerbot of the autobots. When he was taken down, the autobots got smoked. When the arialbots were released, the autobots were kicking butt. Superion was a major part of the team, flying the autobots to san francisco, and helping to keep devestator busy, and saving several humans. As for his death, what if guns or missles missed the nuke?

Then one of them could have flown into it instead of all five of them.

radioactive fallout is diluted by water, but some could still be carried on the wind. It was important for superion to take down that nuke asap, and couldnt waste time trying to be fancy.

"I shot it" - yeah - fancy.

As for prime and megatron, the autobts were USED by the humans they protected. They had blood on thier hands, and were being manipulated and lied to from the beginning. Megs new this, and though he typically hated prime for standing in his way, when he saw a great soldier being used and hurt like that, he felt pity for him. How the freakin samhill is THAT such a stretch?

Because Prime isn't stupid enough to see humans as perfect. The whole point of a charachter like Prime is that he defends people regardless - he would defend the Decepticons if they were being oppressed by a greater power.

I even went so far as to using an example, how its a anime and manga style, to draw out simple actions to show character through those actions, or to simply flex some artistic muscles. Pat lee took the style a bit further, and made some of the panels akin to animation. Wow, must of sucked too, because its been getting critical praise and adulation from various publications.

echo! echo!

And even old TF greats like Furman and wildman

Who he is curently paying...

are praising Pat lee and sarracini and mick, but they are all sellouts, or stupid, or ignorant. everyone that agrees with BF, compy, and co. is absoloutly 100% correct, and they can say anything we want about anyone who disagrees, because ignorance is not only bliss, its a way of life. Espescially for thier lives.

No, i apologise, you are not pompous at all.

Anyway, like I said, this is going nowhere.

Why could that be?

Its just a endless back and forth on a subject that should not even have come up, due to its lack of respect for the opinions for others.

'Compy are you on crack?'

so this will be the last time I post.

Promise? Its just you have already said that... its not fair to get our hopes up like that.

The sun has set here in canada, and I have recieved no message or notifications of being added by anyone here. some of you totally remind me of little children that ring a doorbell and run away. You can say stuff, but you dont want to settle the arguments you start.

**** off! We can settle it right here. Several of us have been trying to. You accuse others of being cowards but want to take a debate you don't have the wit to even understand let alone win out of sight to save yiour blushes.

Very mature gentlemen, but I expected no better from the likes of compy, and BF.



I understand you meant it as a simple joke BF, but seriously, it wasnt funny,

Yes, but unseriously, it was. Hence the resposnes you just can't bare to acknowledge.

It just went to show how you didnt like to lose that argument we had on the budiansky lovin thread.



Show me where child.

You say Im wrong, but its hard to take a person like you seriously, a man that doesnt take himself seriously.



So, dont be too surprised when I say I find your claim of innocence particularly hollow and empty.

Which doesn't run at all contradictory to saying you know it was a simple joke, five lines ago...

I know you have a tendancy to contradict yourself Ishy, but doing it in such close proximity is a bit much surely. Or are you just refining your art?

from here on out, no hard feelings. Ive mentioned time and again that its not the differing opinions that angered me, it was the disrespect of this thread to the art style in general. Were I to make a similar thread of wildmans or senior style, which is less adopted and used then pat lees, I suspect I truly would be banned. I have nothing but total respect for the opinions of everyone here, even you besty, and I did overreact slightly initially. I still find this post to be unamusing, and insulting to the hundreads of artists that use the very same style lee does, but his argument is going nowhere. so, Ill see all of you on other parts of the forum.

Dude you are ****ing hilarious.

[This message has been edited by Ishin_ookami (edited 11-10-2003).]
LMFAO
 
Posted by snarl on 11-10-2003 at 10:07 PM:
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
***UTTER UTTER **** ALERT!***
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-10-2003 at 11:00 PM:
Dear Lord, lets just shoot this thread in head and be done with it. Any good that may have come from this threa is long gone. Lets let it die in ignomy.
 
Posted by Zizicez on 11-10-2003 at 11:11 PM:
how did this topic get this big so quick

who is pat lee?
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-11-2003 at 01:00 AM:
Lots of bad blood. Best to avoid this one before you get called an ignorant borderline racist like the rest of us.
 
Posted by spiderfrommars on 11-11-2003 at 02:20 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword:
Dear Lord, lets just shoot this thread in head and be done with it. Any good that may have come from this threa is long gone. Lets let it die in ignomy.


No! Come on BLackie, aren't ya enjoying yourself?

I'd contribute further to the debate myself, but there's no reasoning with some people.
 
Posted by Best First on 11-11-2003 at 02:43 AM:
You're all just intimidated like me.

Hrrm, just imagine if my original intent had been to poke fun in the hope that the provocation would lead someone to expose themselves as not having a leg to stand on?

That sure would have backfired, huh?

Anyway...
 
Posted by Obfleur on 11-11-2003 at 03:31 AM:
Wow!
I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer - I dont even have english as my first language. But even I understand that people arent trashing Manga/Anime/Japan/Whatever - people are talking about Pat Lee not being able to tell a Transformers Story.
And I dont see why you have to talk about being a proud puppy, and having done that, and this and "I am the king of the world" What does that have to do with anything?
Blablablablablabalblablbal, anooying crap.
 
Posted by Ozz on 11-11-2003 at 04:58 AM:
To all of you who are slagging Jose Delbo. You are wrong in saying that his art sucks. I mean, how can it suck? His style is based on ancient Latino American style of art. You just don't understand it cause you don't know it, it not being used in mainstream comics. I have hundreds of friends who all are saying his art is wonderful. And I won't repeat myself again. It is buena, it is buena, it is buena. Saying it is bad, it's almost like you being racist towards these people.

Wow, that was easy. Now I can defend everybody.

Now seriously. You say again it is manga. I say again no matter what style it is, when I just take issue six of vol 2, there're moments (usually when characters are not standing still) that I just don't know what the **** is going on. And since it's not only me, then I guess it must be artist fault. Or not?

As for Devastator from the end of vol 1 #4, there indeed was a big debate on TFArchive. I wasn't posting here at TransFans then, and I don't post at Dreamwave MB, so I don't know about those boards. Fine, so he's roaring in triumph. Then why the hell does he look like he's so scared, he's about to **** his metal pants? Is it just his very own style of showing triumph?

Time and time again you give 'arguements' why Pat Lee's art is better. The latest one was rates at the Amazon. So I checked what rates different products has. Britney Spears CDs - all of them 4 or 4.5. Interesting. I checked few other artists (Deep Purple, Cher)and all their CDs have given 4 or more stars.

Another brilliant arguement of yours is that your friends somewhere say it is good. I don't want to offence any of them, but are they too not capable of telling which is Lee's work, and which isn't? Honestly, I had great laugh with: Pat has a sweet joke lithograph...' Some expert you are. That was the moment I personally stopped care about what you're saying.

And about Best First's joke, aren't those like art, some may like it, some not, some understand it, some don't? I found it funny. I can give a proof it is funny, several of my friends whom I sent the link laughed their ass off.

OK, I agree too that this topic should die. Just wanted to throw all this out. And I hope no Latino American was offended because of the beginning of this post.
 
Posted by Obfleur on 11-11-2003 at 05:55 AM:
I laughed at BF's joke, and I laughed at Ozz's last post.
Yay!
 
Posted by Brendocon on 11-11-2003 at 06:09 AM:
I have an opinion.

There is something in the world I like. I cannot effectively articulate why I like it, but suffice to say I do.

There are people who do not share my view. They are wrong. They are horribly, horribly wrong and are all terrible people for not sharing my view.

When these people speak of the issue, they do so in a mocking manner. They make jokes, they have fun at the expense of the issue. I cannot tolerate this, for I love it.

By not sharing my viewpoint, they have illustrated their severe immaturity. Their jokes are not funny, and I can prove this by the fact I do not laugh at them. I have an incredibly high opinion of myself, and therefore my definition of humour applies to everybody else. If I do not find a joke amusing, therefore it is not funny. Ever.

These people give valid, structured, well-thought-out reasons for their dislike for the thing I love. But I can disprove these arguments by calling them assholes for not sharing my belief.

Some people like me in the real world - I have many friends. This makes my views superior to those of anybody I meet on the internet. People on the internet have not met me, therefore they cannot know better than me. By voicing discontent for the thing I love, they insult my honour.

I shall defend the thing I love by saying things like "because" and "you obviously aren't the target audience." If this fails, I shall question the legitimacy and call them by "amusingly" offensive names, which will make people realise that I have wit and intelligence, along with a level of maturity that immediately makes my opinion valid.

If this fails, I shall very possibly resort to using homophobic innuendo. I shall not even pay full attention to their valid arguments, instead I will drown out their logic by repeating my tired insults over and over. I shall change the crux of the discussion, shifting the argument away from the initial issue and onto the fact that they are flaming me for having an opinion. I shall resist all attempts to move the focus back to the original effort, as it's not relevant because they just don't understand. I can prove my opinion superior by giving minimal evidence to support it, and instead trashing the things that they like. This deflects attention away from the fact that I do not have a leg to stand on.

For I am netfan. My opinion is sacred and should be shared by all.

People like different things. If you like something, good - but be prepared to explain why rationally. If you don't, then that's your call - but be prepared to explain why rationally.

Pointing to the fact that other people like or dislike something is NEVER valid rationale for why you like it.

And ALWAYS be prepared to listen to and respect other peoples opinions. So long as somebody can justify exactly why they like it, then that's their imperitive.

The wonderful thing about opinions is that, by definition, they aren't right. They're all about individual interpretation. Art is entirely opinion based. So long as somebody can articulately support their opinion, that's fine. If they can't, then they're really best off not voicing it.


*disengages admin mode before I try to lock the topic*
 
Posted by Metal Vendetta on 11-11-2003 at 07:19 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami:
Were I to make a similar thread of wildmans or senior style, which is less adopted and used then pat lees, I suspect I truly would be banned.
Dude, lots of people don't like Wildman's style. Many have described it on here and elsewhere as too organic, or that they don't like his "long faces". Some people have even said that they don't like Senior's artwork. And that's OK. We don't mind. Really. We don't turn around and start whining that they are dumb and racist against the English because they don't understand the English style of drawing comics. You won't get banned for expressing your opinion, even if it is done in an irreverent way, as BF has done here. You will get banned if you make personal attacks on people ("on crack", "STOOPID", "MORON", etc.) for expressing their opinion. You may not agree with them but you don't have to take it so personally and you don't have to make personal attacks on other people.

Now in this thread: http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6141 both Razak and scoobyrex said that they disliked the DWG1 stuff. Razak even posted: Lee's stuff I thought was simply too cartoony, particularly given the more mature atmosphere of the stories. You have posted right underneath him, yet you refrain from calling him a moron and borderline racist. Is this just something you do here to get attention? Why not drop Razak a line and let him know what you think of him?

Ive mentioned time and again that its not the differing opinions that angered me, it was the disrespect of this thread to the art style in general.

Which is why at the top of this thread you will see the words "Pat Lee's best ever drawing" and not "Shohen-style manga sucks", although if someone were to post a thread called "Shohen-style manga sucks" then that's also someone's valid opinion. There are people who - get this - don't like the same things you like. Check these:

But it makes me understand the possibility that kids out there actually like Micheal Turner or Pat Lee's art, even though it disgusts me.

Pat Lee's art itself is often less than stellar.

Pat Lee's art in this issue is a sore point with some fans. While it remains impressive to look at, there are some noticable deformations and inconsistencies. And depending on one's personal preference, Lee's penchance for extra-extra-extra-large combiners is either great eye candy or a great annoyance.

It's really depressing to me how far Pat Lee's art has fallen. He used to use a much more realistic manga style, then he just kind of threw it out the window and started doing things incredibly toony. I don't know if its because this is faster, or what, but it's a big letdown.

It all looks pretty good. but I absolutly hate Pat lee and Adam warren. I mean Adam warren has annoyed me for years now, but recently so has Pat lee.

Don Figueroa beats Pat Lee as most popular TF artist

I dunno man. Pat Lee (thats his name right?) is really good at mechs but I sorta hate how he does people. Whatever though.

I skipped the Dreamwave panel, since Dreamwave ****ing sucks. I wish I had spit in Pat Lee's hair while Rhino was interviewing him.

Pat Lee isn't my idea of an excellent cartoonist (in terms of expressive faces, body language, etc.)

after trg went lot 1 to eat wif the hc ppl..seems no wan likes pat lee..or shud i sae..fat lee..

Why Pat Lee? Pat Lee has magnificent illustrative skills, and he has one of the best digital teams behind his back, BUT He can't tell a story for ****!

I see you used Pat Lee's rendition of prime as a reference. at least you made the lines straight, instead of making prime look like some @#%$ balloon like pat lee does.

Least Favorite Artist: Pat Lee

Hadn't you better get out there and tell them all how good Pat Lee really is? Looks like you've got your work cut out for you...Oh, and while we're on the subject:
http://maddox.xmission.com/anime_nerd.html
 
Posted by Best First on 11-11-2003 at 08:08 AM:
As many babies as you want.
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-11-2003 at 08:23 AM:
Well Spidey I just got tired of being teh voice of reason and the diplomat. Avoiding the urge to be sarcastic, take pot shots and make snide remarks when someone's acting poorly is tiring.

So I've officially given up. (well I knda lost it when I got mad several posts ago, oh well )

I'm going for a cup of tea, anyone wanna join me.
 
Posted by Karl Lynch on 11-11-2003 at 08:26 AM:
quote:
I'm going for a cup of tea, anyone wanna join me.
didn't know you'd come apart

and no, thanks- im gonna stick around and watch emvee and besty make babies...
 
Posted by Best First on 11-11-2003 at 08:32 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword:
Well Spidey I just got tired of being teh voice of reason and the diplomat. Avoiding the urge to be sarcastic,
Ugh, even being sarcastic got wearying after a bit - that hasn't happened in a while.

Just promise me you'll read MV's last link before you go...

Earl Grey please.
 
Posted by Metal Vendetta on 11-11-2003 at 08:40 AM:
Milk, no sugar, I'm sweet enough already
 
Posted by impactor returns on 11-11-2003 at 09:40 AM:
This so funny, and anoying all at the same time...
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-11-2003 at 10:28 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Best First:


Earl Grey please.


You're in luck, that's all I got.

Query. Will the babies have your face or MV's if the former we better find some tiny boxes pronto.
 
Posted by Metal Vendetta on 11-11-2003 at 10:59 AM:
If they have my face, I would heartily suggest they get laser eye surgery before they stumble into something and injure themselves...



But who wouldn't want babies with this man?
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-11-2003 at 11:17 AM:
Ishin may have been wrong about Compy but you MV most certainly have the crack pipe firmly clenched in your teeth.
 
Posted by Best First on 11-11-2003 at 11:23 AM:
Such criticims of EmVee borders (borders: verb: To closely infringe, or approach a line, or limit, without violating or crossing it) on racism Blackie and you know it.

You are wicked and evil.

I'm so gonna archive this mo'fo...
 
Posted by Computron on 11-11-2003 at 11:28 AM:
Best First has some fine legs!
 
Posted by impactor returns on 11-11-2003 at 12:14 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Best First:


I'm so gonna archive this mo'fo...


Oh the tyranny!
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-11-2003 at 01:15 PM:
Tiem for a munity folks. To the Ivory Tower! *account gets erased*
 
Posted by Computron on 11-11-2003 at 01:29 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword:
Tiem for a munity folks.


Hi Jazz!
 
Posted by spiderfrommars on 11-11-2003 at 01:33 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Best First:


I'm so gonna archive this mo'fo...


Yup. Its gotta be done.
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-11-2003 at 01:58 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Computron:
Hi Jazz!
Is that for the mutiny or my complete inability to notice typos?
 
Posted by Brendocon on 11-11-2003 at 03:20 PM:
Mutinies are my department! You need to get an authorisation slip!
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-11-2003 at 04:50 PM:
*uses Brend as a battering ram on the front gates*

*snap!*

Well that's me done

*leaves shattered corpse on the ground and walks away whistling*
 
Posted by Secret Incognito Brend on 11-11-2003 at 05:17 PM:
Like you'll be rid of me that easily. I've been reincarnated more times than Galifreyimus Prime.
 
Posted by Computron on 11-11-2003 at 05:24 PM:
And this was such a nice flame war thread too...now it's gone all...non-flamey.

yeah...
 
Posted by snarl on 11-11-2003 at 05:34 PM:
PUBES

I feel the thread needed that...
 
Posted by Best First on 11-11-2003 at 05:43 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by snarl:
PUBES


You have superceded at least one person's entire contribution...
 
Posted by Dylan on 11-11-2003 at 06:08 PM:
Hey there, Ishin_ookami, I don't think we've met before.

I'm quite sure you're a good guy and successful in life. That's great! I'm sincerely happy for you!

After reading this topic in it's entirety (took a while, and I must say I enjoyed those initial images a lot) I personally think you are taking things a bit too seriously. Your reward for this was a hefty dose of sharp (if not witty) critique from a number of people very much respected in this community.

Now while it's commendable to be yourself in whatever situation you're in, it's also common courtesy to respect established social patterns.

There's definitely a certain form of humour and understanding here on Transfans. Most of the regular posters have come to love it. For many of us, it is this very style and mood that makes this place a second home.

To be honest, I myself have had difficulties at times with agreeing on certain issues. Practically speaking, for example I've hit my head on Best First's sense of sarcasm more than once in the past.

The point though, is that everyone's entitled to his or her own opinion! And that humour and logic really abound on Transfans!

We all like and respect each other. It's as simple as that.

I'm quite sure you'll be more than welcome and accepted into our midst if you loosen up just a bit.

Have a drink on me, Ishin_ookami!

Actually, drinks on me for everyone!
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-11-2003 at 06:49 PM:
"And thus did Dylan's boundless love for all things kill the evil flame thread for henceforth no one would wish to bring malaise into its midst."
 
Posted by Obfleur on 11-12-2003 at 03:02 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword:
"And thus did Dylan's boundless love for all things kill the evil flame thread for henceforth no one would wish to bring malaise into its midst."


*Gives the finger to everybody* Hah!
 
Posted by Metal Vendetta on 11-12-2003 at 04:09 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Dylan:
Actually, drinks on me for everyone!
That's why I have a tattoo of OrionPax on my unmentionables...
 
Posted by spiderfrommars on 11-12-2003 at 08:27 AM:
Ishin has lost this argument, thats why he is no longer posting in this thread. Sorry to state the obvious but there you go...

Respect due to the cutting wit of BF and the irrefutable evidence brought forth before the jury by MV.

The subject is guilty as charged. Feed him to the Sharkticons.
 
Posted by Best First on 11-12-2003 at 09:08 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by spiderfrommars:
Respect due to the cutting wit of BF and the irrefutable evidence brought forth before the jury by MV.

And the unrelenting comedy genius that is Maddox.
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-12-2003 at 09:12 AM:
No credit again....
 
Posted by Best First on 11-12-2003 at 09:34 AM:
...and the unrelenting reason of Blacksword...

and the 'from the mouth of babes' wisdom of Obfluer

and the crotchety crotchetyness of IR.

And some other people.

No animals were harmed in the making of this thread. Altho some 'argument's were severely butchered...
 
Posted by Metal Vendetta on 11-12-2003 at 09:48 AM:
I'd like to thank my agent, and everyone who has been so supportive throughout this production...I couldn't have done it without you all.
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-12-2003 at 10:28 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Best First:

No animals were harmed in the making of this thread. Altho some 'argument's were severely butchered...


Though some lost their innocence to a certain unnamed poster whom we shall call M Vendetta, no no, that's too obvous, Metal V.

(points to whoever gets the reference)
 
Posted by Brendocon on 11-12-2003 at 10:39 AM:
I'd like to thank Gwyneth Paltrow, Gwyneth Paltrow's parents, Gwyneth Paltrow's agent, Gwyneth Paltrow's stylist, her cat, her dog, her fridge, her fridge-magnets, her newspaper delivery boy, her p.a., her school, her schoolteachers, her school's pet gerbil, the cat from across the street who ate her school's pet gerbil, her friends, her friends wives, her friends' wives servants, her friends' wives' servants' tennis partner, and some bloke I bumped into in the pub the other night called Gerald.
 
Posted by Computron on 11-12-2003 at 10:53 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword:
Though some lost their innocence to a certain unnamed poster whom we shall call M Vendetta, no no, that's too obvous, Metal V.

(points to whoever gets the reference)

Will L. Simpson please report to the principal's office? No wait, that's too obvious. Will Lisa S. please report to the principal's offic? - Skinner
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-12-2003 at 11:10 AM:
And we have a winner!

Glad me and my friends aren't the only ones who can chronically quote teh Simpsons.
 
Posted by impactor returns on 11-12-2003 at 01:17 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword:
And we have a winner!

Glad me and my friends aren't the only ones who can chronically quote teh Simpsons.


-well duh!
 
Posted by impactor returns on 11-12-2003 at 01:44 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Best First:


and the crotchety crotchetyness of IR.


wow! my word play hero!
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-12-2003 at 01:50 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by impactor returns:
-well duh!


Hey man a lot fo people think I'm weird. It's second nature with my friends from High School but most often now, alls I get is a funny look. Oh well.
 
Posted by impactor returns on 11-13-2003 at 10:12 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword:
Hey man a lot fo people think I'm weird. It's second nature with my friends from High School but most often now, alls I get is a funny look. Oh well.


i was quoting Burns there
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-13-2003 at 11:05 AM:
You could have also been quoting Lisa.
 
Posted by Metal Vendetta on 11-13-2003 at 11:15 AM:
If anyone wants me, I'll be in my room.
 
Posted by Computron on 11-13-2003 at 11:40 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Metal Vendetta:
If anyone wants me, I'll be in my room.
What kinda catch-phrase is that?
 
Posted by Rebis on 11-13-2003 at 11:58 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword:
You could have also been quoting Lisa.
Or indeed Marge, Moe, Bart and several others who have said that phrase at one time or another.
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-13-2003 at 12:00 PM:
Though I will admit Burns' was the most memorable and it tens to crop up in compilations of episodes used for commercials. But that's easily solved

"Where is a lowlife scum when you need one?"

"Sorry, I was in the can."
 
Posted by impactor returns on 11-13-2003 at 12:50 PM:
"the moral of the story is, never try"

how apt for this thread!
 
Posted by Blacksword on 11-13-2003 at 01:00 PM:
Indeed.

Well we seem to have found a new goal for it. "How much useless spam can we fill it with before it gets closed. "
 
Posted by Aux on 11-13-2003 at 01:27 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Metal Vendetta:
If anyone wants me, I'll be in my room.
You forgot your coat!

Ooh I haven't posted for a while
 
Posted by Hotdog Divebomb on 11-13-2003 at 01:34 PM:
I think the only thing this thread is missing now is a cameo from the greatest poster in history.

Shame, though. You'll have to settle for me.
 
Posted by snarl on 11-13-2003 at 01:38 PM:
You mean that poster with the tennis girl scratching her naked arse, Ja?

I'm sure we could find it...